#72 - Dr. Valli Parthasarathy: Cooperative Care for All Species

In this week's interview episode, we're joined by Dr. Valli Parthasarathy the owner of Synergy Veterinary Behavior in Portland, Oregon, where she helps families whose dogs, cats, birds, horses, and other species show problematic behaviors. 

In this episode, you’re going to hear Emily and Valli talk about:

• Common behavior issues in various species
• Cooperative care for significant behavioral special needs
• The ROI of sedation for medical procedures
• Dr. Valli’s journey with a teenage Dutch Shepherd

You can find the full episode show notes here. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Valli: And also, just being aware that we can make differences. We can change this behavior. They don't have to, you don't have to go through your entire life with a dog who bites you when you're trying to groom them. Or their dog is, you know, can't go to the vet. Or you can't do your dog's nails. Or you can't do your cat's nails. Those are things that you can change. And it's possible to change. Even if the behaviors are pretty significant, we can change them.

[00:00:22] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:39] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:00:41] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Dr. Valli Parthasarathy. Dr. Parthasarathy is the owner of Synergy Veterinary Behavior, a behavior specialty practice in Portland, Oregon. She helps families whose dogs, cats, birds, horses, and other species show problematic behaviors. Her goal is to help support positive behavioral change through greater mutual understanding and improved relationships between people and their animals. 

She has been invited to speak on podcasts and at national and international conferences on topics in veterinary behavior, ranging from early recognition of problem behavior and treating behavior problems in various species, to making veterinary care less stressful for patients.

I love how passionate Dr. Valli is about working with multiple species. She's so compassionate towards, not just the pets in her care, but also the clients, and wants to make sure that her plan is actually doable for them. Y'all know that we're all about sustainability and working smarter, not harder, so I love hearing about how to do that from veterinary Behaviorist Perspective. In this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Valli talk about common behavior issues in various species, cooperative care for significant behavioral special needs, the ROI of sedation for medical procedures, and Dr. Valli's journey with a teenage Dutch shepherd.

[00:02:23] Emily: Okay, tell us your name, pronouns, and pets.

[00:02:26] Valli: My name is Valli Parthasarathy. I'm a Veterinary Behaviorist at Synergy Veterinary Behavior in Portland, Oregon. I, my pronouns are she, her. I have a wonderful, somewhat exuberant, Dutch Shepherd named Phoenix, who's about two and a half years old at this point. My practice is a, like I said, a veterinary behavior practice, and we focus on diagnosis and treatment of behavior, complex behavior problems for dogs, cats, birds and other species. And through that, we try to, our goal is to provide nice, seamless support for patients and clients through the veterinary behavior side, as well as the behavior modification as well, and integrated and collaborative program.

[00:03:17] Emily: I love what you do and also big ups to you for sharing your life with a big old adolescent dog. Tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:28] Valli: Oh, so, you know, I always, I always had a love for animals. My parents really instilled in me just a respect for the species and the animals that in the wild. We spent a lot of time when I was young going to national parks, going, traveling different places so that we could see different animals in their habitat, which I think is a really unique and wonderful experience, which I'm really grateful for. We also lived in, my house I spent most of my childhood in was in the woods, so I had a lot of snakes, and deer, and birds that I would observe, that I would just watch every day. And I didn't actually realize that animal behavior was kind of what my passion was until I got into college and realized that there was actually, actually you could focus on animal behavior. So, I actually started off doing general research, general studies and research in animal behavior, but I also had a love for my, my pet dog at the time, Zorro, and really enjoyed working with him. And I was also working with a veterinary behaviorist when I was in high school and also, she was my mentor when I was in college. And she also introduced me into the world of veterinary behavior at a very young, at a young age comparatively speaking. And so, I, I found that very exciting as well. And as I, as I kind of progressed through my college career, I started shifting my interest from working on research with wild animals to what can we do to really help the animals that we live with every day? And how can we help them have the most fulfilled lives that we can have?

[00:04:59] Emily: I love that so much and I find it interesting how many of us always loved animals and wanted to work with animals, but we had to start in another facet of animal welfare and then find our way to behavior. I feel like that's a common thread, right? So, I want to start by talking about the fact that you work with lots of species, not just dogs and cats, because I do too, that's, that’s my heart. And fortunately, we live in a time where taking your dog or cat to a veterinary behaviorist when they have some serious behavioral special needs is becoming more normalized in this country. But we're not quite there yet with other companion animal species. So, can we talk about the species that you see in your practice? And what kind of behavior issues do you help with? 

[00:05:47] Valli: I see, so, like you mentioned, dogs and cats are one of the, the primary species, or the two primary species that I work with. We do also see birds. So, I have worked with several parrots. I work with horses. I also have a couple of rabbits right now that I'm working with. I've worked in the past with ferrets. And so, there's a wide, a wide range I've worked at. I've worked at zoos. Consulted at zoos, so it's been a really wide range of different species that I've worked with, which is actually part of what I really love about this, about this profession in this field is just you know, I can come home and, and say, hey, I, you know, think to myself, hey, I worked with a rabbit today, or I worked with, you know, a dog in the morning and a parrot in the evening.

And it's just really a lot of fun to be able to work with that range of species. As far as the most common problems that I see. In my dogs and cats, aggressive behavior is the big one. For my parrot’s aggressive behavior and screaming. Excessive screaming are the two big ones. And aggressive behavior for the parrots, typically towards their people. With the rabbits oftentimes aggressive behavior. And, and then as far as with the horses, it's been a range of different things, ranging from compulsive, repetitive behaviors, to fear of handling or fear of specific, of specific tasks.

[00:07:04] Emily: That's fascinating. I think I just kind of assumed that the more prey species like rabbits and parrots, you would see some aggression, obviously, because all species are, have a tendency towards aggression under the right circumstances. But I kind of assumed that most of it would be like self-destructive behaviors, or you know, stereotypies or things like that. So, when you're dealing with rabbits with aggression, is there a common thread in, in kind of their histories or, or how that happens? How, how do the, how do the quintessential prey animal become like conflict seeking?

[00:07:45] Valli: Well, it depends. So, it, it's, oftentimes it's related to fear. We know that with dogs and cats, the biggest source of aggressive behavior in most cases is fear. And that's certainly been the case in the rabbits that I've worked with. The rabbits that I've worked with that have had human directed aggressive behavior, there's typically been a fear component where the rabbit has learned that lunging will make the scary thing go away. And that's what their defense mechanism is at this point. They've learned, well, running away didn't work because I got cornered, so let me lunge now. In some cases, you can also have a territorial component, and in, in a couple of the cases I've worked with, that's what, that's part of what was going on, was that this rabbit was being protective about the area that, that they were living. The most recent rabbits that we were working with were actually rabbits that were having territorial. One was having some territorial behavior towards the other. And so, it was actually the two rabbits that were having aggressive, the one rabbit who was having aggressive behavior towards the other rabbit. And as we, it was, it was actually a really interesting situation because as we, as we went through the consult, I also saw that there was a strong fear that the rabbits had of the people, and so we actually started focusing on improving the relationship between the rabbits and the people before we even started working on the desensitization of the rabbits themselves.

[00:09:01] Emily: That's really beautiful because a lot of times we miss the relationship issues, or the environmental factors that are creating or exacerbating these behaviors. So, I love hearing that. I've, I've, done a lot of work with parrot species. I think a lot of people assume that when birds become aggressive, they're kind of these extreme perspectives. One perspective is parrots bite, that's what they do. The opposite extreme is they, they wouldn't bite unless they'd been abused. And so, often what I actually found in working with these birds is that it actually started with these kind of species typical behaviors of birds exploring with their beaks, and then people react to that and, and think their bird was biting them. And then it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because their big reaction scares the bird, and then the bird clamps down, and then the bird learns that biting humans gets big results. And I saw that over, and over, and over again. Do you see a lot of that in the birds that you work with or are you seeing a different set of parrot clients?

[00:10:11] Valli: I would say I've seen both. I've seen both in the sense that I've seen the birds that you've been talking about where they, they're exploring with their mouths, and they get a big reaction. And then some of these, I think that some of these birds have a little bit of sense of humor. And so, they're like, ooh, I like this. And so that big reaction is very reinforcing for them. 

I've also seen a lot of birds where they were showing some very, they were showing some very species typical behaviors of avoidance first. And because birds were using species typical behavior, their people don't always recognize that this bird is trying to avoid them, or trying to give signals that they're uncomfortable before they then try to bite. So, I've seen, I've seen both of those. And then, of course, once they learn, once they learn they're uncomfortable about the hand reaching for them and they learn that biting makes the hand go away, then they're more likely to do it again in the future. 

I think the thing that's really hard with birds and some, and rabbits, and some of these other exotic pets is that if they, is that unfortunately, since they oftentimes live in sort of a confined environment, if they do start biting their people, then people just kind of confine them. And then they, and so I think that there's a large population of birds that don't get the help that they need because they just are kind of put away and not really, not really addressed, which is very unfortunate for birds, because, as you know, they're just so they just need so much mental stimulation.

[00:11:33] Emily: Absolutely. And what I said earlier wasn't to imply that I never ever worked with birds who had that experience. I just found it fascinating how frequently biting wasn't the result of horrible abuse or gross neglect. It was just this car crash between human perception of species typical behaviors and birds just being birds.

[00:11:58] Valli: Oh, I love how you put that. The car crash. It's true. It's true. So much of the time it is seeming like a car crash. I do think that the idea, because I'll see this with my dogs and my cat patients also. That a lot of times they'll, people will say, well, you know, I know that he was abused because he'll cower. And a lot of times there's not necessarily evidence that those behaviors actually are a result of abuse. And so, so yeah, you don't have to have abuse happening for, for those sorts of situations. 

[00:12:25] Emily: Yes. We can simultaneously acknowledge that not all fearful and aggressive behavior is a product of abuse and also many animals are unintentionally abused because people don't know how to meet their needs. I'm curious about the horses. What is it about horses that makes aggression so much less likely? Because I have worked with horses with aggression issues, but I agree with you, most of the horses that I've worked with, it's not conflict seeking. So, what do you think that's about? 

[00:12:59] Valli: Well, there may be a few different reasons for it. And I wouldn't, I don't know that there's research behind this. So, what I'm saying right now is conjecture. But I think that part of it is that horses learn very young, that if they try to, if they try to do certain things, really bad things happen to them. So, I think that they learn that when they're quite young. 

I also think that if we have a dog, if we have a horse that's showing aggressive, like significant aggressive behavior, especially at a young age, they're probably, they're most likely are euthanized pretty early. So, that they're, so that is maybe not being perpetuated in the gene pool as well. So, those are some things that kind of come to my mind, but I do think there's an all, a lot of early learning that occurs that makes the horse sort of make horses shut down and stop reacting. Versus necessarily acting aggressively. Now, I do think that they may act, you know, that, that doesn't mean that they won't act aggressively, obviously. But there may be a component of that, that is instilled in them when they're young.

[00:13:58] Emily: I think that's a really good point because I, as you were talking, I was thinking about it. And rabbit training, or parrot training isn't as culturally acceptable, or culturally normal, let's say. Whereas if you get a horse, you train a horse, right? So, dogs and horses are more under the conditions of human interference, for lack of a better word, in their behavioral repertoire from a very young age, whereas other species, not so much.

[00:14:29] Valli: Yeah, and there's also, I mean, for horses, I think there's that, that idea that there's a huge risk if we have a, I mean, they're so much bigger than we are and they have so many um, different tools at their disposal should they show aggressive behavior.

So, I think that that is something that is very much in the forefront of a lot of people. And that probably also contributes to maybe how their initial interactions with people go. As they are learning and exploring, they're taught probably pretty young, and they explore with their mouths, just like, you know, just like birds do, and just like people, like, you know, dogs do. But it's very strong, it's often very strongly discouraged.

[00:15:06] Emily: That's really interesting. You said that you do some consultations for zoos. What kind of behaviors do you typically work on in zoos? I mean, I know that's a big question because you're working with a lot of different species, but I'm curious. 

[00:15:19] Valli: Yeah. So, for, for the zoos, I've worked with some patients who have had stereotypic behaviors various types. Some where we've had an inter of a combination of a behavioral issue and a medical issue. Did some consulting on some handlings, handling training, introduction, introduction recommendations. So, those are a few different things that I've worked on.

[00:15:40] Emily: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for diving into some of the species’ differences that you work with. I saw on your website that you've worked with South American Pacas, so naturally I'm incredibly envious. Tell me more. What was your experience with them? 

[00:15:57] Valli: So, that was actually when I was back in college. And it was part of what I was, it was part of what was sort of driving me towards going into the field of behavior specifically. I was actually doing a independent research project on aquatic locomotion. And so I was, I had a swim tank that we had put together and I trained the pacas to walk into the swim tank and swim in there.

And then I was taking videos and photographs of their swimming locomotion and basically did an analysis of that. And so, and as part of that, also, I was working with the husbandry side of things, so I was actually caring for the pacas, and they, they had some other South American animals, also, that were, that were, the university had in their care. So, working with them, as well, from a sort of husbandry standpoint. So, it was a lot of fun. They were, they were, they were really cute, and just really, just really fun, fun little animals.

[00:16:50] Emily: Yeah, I, that was fascinating that you were studying their aquatic, locomotion. I'm curious about their personalities and stuff, because to me, I see them as like somewhere between an otter and a raccoon. So, like, just mischievous and like getting into things. Is that an accurate image?

[00:17:10] Valli: You know, my experiences with them were they were really curious. They were, have, they definitely liked, they liked the social interaction. They did, they weren't really, they didn't really enjoy, weren't really into being petted or anything like that, but they enjoyed having that interaction and being able to do things. So, I would say that they were very curious and they did like to explore new things.

[00:17:31] Emily: I love that. Yeah. I mean, when I saw that. I actually gasped. I was like, lucky! 

[00:17:39] Valli: I totally agree. There's some, there's some species out there that I would probably love to work with.

[00:17:44] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. I have a list for sure. So, I want to kind of tie in what we've just been discussing with a big thing that I wanted to talk to you about. We met you through the lovely Sara McLoudrey, whom we interviewed a couple of seasons ago about care with consent. And there's a common misconception that care with consent, or cooperative care, or forced free handling, or whatever people want to call it can only be done with animals who don't have severe behavior issues, or they only have minor issues. And yet as a veterinary behaviorist, you almost exclusively work with animals whose behavioral health is pretty significantly compromised.

And we just talked about all these species that primarily you're seeing them for aggression and, and even the ones that you're not seeing for aggression, they still have a lot of, you know, deep behavioral struggles, right? So, can you talk about how and why care with consent is still not only possible but preferable for those pets? 

And, and kind of secondarily to that. What do you recommend for people, while they're waiting to see a veterinary behaviorist, are there some general strategies that you can recommend that could make people safer in their interactions with their pets easier?

[00:19:03] Valli: For, for that last part, are you thinking of it specifically with respect to care, handling care. Like care with consent and cooperative care sort of situations in the home? 

[00:19:13] Emily: Yeah, I think a lot of people really struggle with how to share their homes with an animal who sometimes is conflict seeking, right? And so, they tend to either get a little harsh about it, or they just accept that this is their life now, and I can't tell you how many clients, and I'm sure you're the same, but we get so many clients who are like, "Yeah, you know, they bite me every day." And they just kind of accept it. It's like, "No, you don't have to live like this."

[00:19:39] Valli: You don't have to be walking on eggshells around your dog.

[00:19:40] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:19:42] Valli: I, You know, the, the, I'm really, I'm really so excited and glad that the idea of cooperative care, and the mental, being, having the mental, you know, having the awareness of the importance of mental health in the veterinary setting has It's been more and more has been coming to the forefront more and more over the last several, over the last many years.

And so, you know, it's one, it's one of my areas that I feel really passionate about, is just helping pets feel more comfortable in the veterinary clinic, especially. So, it's always really great. It's always makes me really happy to just sort of see the changes that are, that are, that are happening in the veterinary field. 

So, for, for cooperative care, care with consent, fear free handling, like you said, however you want to put it you know, the general idea behind that is that the pet becomes sort of an active participant in the, in the training process, and they get to make choices. It's totally okay for a pet to say no.

And I think that's something that's hard for people to sometimes wrap their minds around because there's I think an idea, especially with dogs and with horses, that if you say something, the dog, the animal has to do it. And so, giving that animal space to be able to say, no, you know, I don't feel comfortable about this. And teaching them a different way of being able to do it, in a way that is less, you know, teaching them less, you know, more or safer ways of saying no, basically, is a great way of, is a great way of thinking about it, where, you know, how can we teach them that they have a say in this, because often, because what we find is that if they have a say in it, they're going to be willing to take, to take more risks and be able to, if they know they can opt out, opt out they will be willing to try more.

So, if you, from a perspective of animals who already have problems versus those who don't, I think that It's equally important, and I think for the patients who, and animals who don't have fears, or concerns, or aggressive behavior around handling, I think it is so important for them to be getting positive conditioning about handling even before problems come up. So, you build up that bank of really positive interactions so that if something is negative, it doesn't immediately set the relationship back. And I think that those animals who don't have problems already, unfortunately, don't, they are a little bit neglected, I think, in terms of looking at their behavior, watching their behavior, making sure they're actually comfortable with what's going on. When we have the animals who are showing problematic behaviors, they're either running away, or they're showing aggressive behaviors, in the context of any sort of handling, so grooming, bathing, veterinary care. It is absolutely, in my opinion, imperative that we got to figure out how do we reduce their overall anxiety to start with, and then how do we then use cooperative care, desensitization and counter conditioning, teaching them how they can opt out safely so that we can go ahead and start teaching them that there are ways that they can, they can tolerate it. They may not love it, but can they at least tolerate it in a way that they know we're getting through this. It's okay. We're going to get through to the other end.

[00:22:43] Emily: I love that discussion about how, when animals know that escape is an option, they don't need to escape as often, right? They're willing to kind of stay with you for a little bit longer. So, talk about how you do this in your practice. And I want to have actually two layers, because I'm pretty sure, and you can tell me if I'm wrong. I've worked in the veterinary field, I worked in the veterinary field for a total of 23 years, but I never worked in a veterinary behaviorist practice. So, my impression is that veterinary behaviorists get more time with each patient client team, in general than people in regular practice, or even other specialties. Is that correct assessment?

[00:23:26] Valli: I would say, I would say yes in general. So, I see my, I would see, I tend to see my patients for about an hour. So, or at least our initial appointments are about an hour. And then often times I'll have follow up appointments and things like that. As far as seeing, being in the room with the patient, I'm probably in the room with the patient, not actually engaging with the patient initially, for quite a bit more time than we might in a general practice. I do know, I think that it may depend on also individual doctors if we're talking about other specialties.

[00:23:57] Emily: Yeah, so, okay, thank you for, I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page about that. So, I want to start by asking you how you approach care with consent in your practice. And then after that, I would love to hear recommendations that you have for regular clinics. Obviously, I'm not expecting you to do a whole fear free certification level of like, you know, information in this podcast episode, but what are some, what's some food for thought? Because I am acutely aware of the time pressures that veterinary staff are under, and the reason that a lot of people feel that care with consent isn't possible in a clinic setting with animals with more severe behavior is because of the time crunch. And I would love to hear you speak to that. So, first, what do you do in your practice? And then what thought, food for thought do you have? 

[00:24:49] Valli: Yeah, so, so in our practice what we first start off is, before, before the client comes in, we get a little bit of, well, we have a history form, so we have a general sense of where the, of what the pet's likely level of comfort is going to be when they come into the clinic. Then when we have the client, we have a curbside sort of system where the client calls in to let us know that they've arrived. And we do that so that we can manage who's coming into the building at what time. So, we can make sure that the lobby is empty. We don't have any other dogs, or people, or anything that our patients may be reactive towards coming into the lobby.

So, we try to keep everything as calm as possible for the patient to come in. So, our, while we're coordinating that, we also find out, you know, would they do well with a visual barrier in between when we first start off? Would they be okay with us being visible? Should we have everybody in the room before they come in, or is it okay for the doctor to come in separately? So, we ask a few questions like that to kind of prep the patient for being able to have, have as calm of an entry as possible. And oftentimes if we can help, help them be calm to start with, that's going to keep them calmer for the entire session. Depending on the situation, we might have music going on as a noise buffer, we may have Adaptal plugins. We have in the past had adaptable plugins, I think they're Thunder Ease now to, you know, help provide some, some scent stimulation as well. But making sure that things are as calm as possible. 

And then during the course of the consultation having the client give treats or us giving treats to the pet to just sort of build a positive association in that room. And judging, seeing whether or not this pet is willing to come up to us, am I able to do any sort of hands-on sort of engagement with this pet in a way that seems comfortable.

So, I actually do a lot of my physical exams while I'm sitting in my chair. And, as the pet comes up and investigates me, if they come up and they put their head in my lap, I'll, you know, I'll do a couple of just little, little quick feels around the lymph nodes, and then, depending on how they're doing, I'll maybe peek in their ears, look in their eyes. If, looking in their mouth, I may or may not do, depending again on the kind of comfort level. But if they're panting, I try to take a look at that. Again, if they present me for some butt rubs, I might rub along their back first, and then sort of sneak my way into an abdominal palpation. And then similarly, sort of, if I, you know, letting them sniff my stethoscope, having my assistant be giving treats as I do, do my auscultation. So, just really slowly doing it in little bits and pieces oftentimes is what I'll, is what I'll end up doing. 

If I have a patient who is very uncomfortable, then I'll do a visual examination and look for signs, external signs of any sort of obvious disease, body shape, body condition, movement. See whether or not there's any stiffness or soreness. We also do thermal imaging at our console at our clinic. It gives us so much information, honestly. So, to be able to, to do that, to provide more information on whether or not they're not me, there may be a pain component to the behavior because at least 50 percent if not more of our patients have some pain component to their behavior. 

And then you know, if they, if I feel like we need to run blood, or something along those lines, again, seeing if the patient is, is comfortable and seems to be positively responsive to handling and treats, then I'll go ahead and have my staff take blood. With the caveat that if they are avoidant or starting to struggle, then we need to stop and have a backup plan. In general, I'll talk about a backup plan to the client of, you know, we're not going to push them, we're not going to hold them down. If they're not, if they're unwilling to do this, then let's try some pre visit medications and then come back in. Let's try again later. So, I, so the clients are prepped that, hey, there are things that we can do to make this as positive as possible. And we want it to be as positive as possible because we want their experience here to be as good as, as it can be. 

So, and then similarly, if I have a patient that I really want to get my hands, to put my hands on that I'm not able to because of their behavior or their level of anxiety, then we may have them come back in with pre visit medications to be able to assess that. But most of the time I'm able to do, I'm able to do at least a, a brief exam on most of my patients just by taking things slow. Letting them come to me, and kind of working up to a sneaky, a sneaky exam. 

[00:29:08] Emily: I think a lot of people are surprised by how powerful it is to, take a little more time up front, figure out what helps them stay calm, let them build some positive associations. I think people expect that that takes a very, very long time, and they would be surprised at how often that's not the case. And I kind of liken it to the medical adage, stay ahead of the pain. I think the behavioral counterpart to that is stay ahead of the panic, right? It's easier to treat it if it never happens.

[00:29:40] Valli: Exactly. And I think that, I think that one of the big things that we coach our, our clients when they're, when they're working with their primary vet is, you know, what, what are strategies that we can use to make sure that your pet is as calm as possible before they get to the vet clinic, before they go into the vet clinic?

What are strategies once they're in the vet clinic? And so, what are, what are, we're, we're big believers of pre visit medications. So, what pre visit medications might be good options? And to, to your point earlier on, you were asking about what can, what are strategies that a general practice can use, and some of the things that would not, would be very helpful and not take much time is for the front desk, for example, to ask questions about what would make this pet more comfortable, or have a survey that goes out beforehand, some, some client paperwork, you know, pre exam paperwork, which asks whether how they do in the, in the lobby, how do they, you know, are they comfortable waiting in the lobby?

Would they feel more comfortable waiting in the car? Would they feel more comfortable have taking a walk around the neighborhood, and then you being called when the room is ready? So, having some of that information ahead of time so that the pet can be as comfortable as possible and not, you know, sitting and stewing in the room, if that's something that gets that pet worried.

And then also, you know, if the, if this is a pet that is having some significant physical, you know, if it's a pet that is having a lot of distress and you're concerned about A, the pet's mental health, but then B also the, the health of everybody on your team, and the health and safety of everybody on the team. And if this is something like a wellness exam is, you know, stepping back and saying, "Hey, you know, I'm seeing. I'm seeing these things. I'm seeing that your, your pet has their ears back, and their tail is tucked, and they're trying to run away. And they're obviously very, very scared here, and I'm worried that if I continue to push this, or hold them down, that this is going to make their, this experience worse, which is going to make their next experience even worse. And, or they might decide to, that they need to start showing aggressive behavior. And I know that they've never shown aggressive behavior before, but you know, any, any dog can bite when they're pushed if they feel upset enough." And so, I'd like to step back for a moment, and I'd like to discuss, can we figure out a way to make it so Fluffy is feeling more comfortable. So, that we can do this in a way that's more pleasant for them. 

And I think a lot of, I think a lot of clients are really stressed about the vet visit, especially when they have a pet who's uncomfortable. So, stepping back and, and telling them, "Hey, I see that your pet is nervous. I see that you're, and you know, I, I know that oftentimes that leads to stress. What can we do to make Fluffies feel more comfortable about this?" And talking about pre visit medications, trialing it beforehand and, you know, coming back in for a second appointment where maybe things will go a little bit quicker because sometimes, yeah, in the appointment time that you have, you don't have the amount of time to, make that level of trust where that pet will actually allow you to touch them. 

If it's a situation where this pet needs to be seen, go to sedation sooner rather than later, as long as everything is safe. But, you know, I'm a also a big proponent of if we can, if we can get them to be a lot calmer, if we can give them some dexdomitor, if we can give them some torb to just take the little bit of the edge off so that everybody is more safe, that's gonna be better for the, the pet in the long run.

[00:32:45] Emily: I'm coming from a place where it's been over a decade since I worked in the veterinary setting. So, I have outdated experiences with the clinics, right? And I think that one of the byproducts of COVID is that most clinics now do a better job of staggering people coming into the lobby. What is better for human health and, and restricting the spread of COVID is better for the animal's behavioral health too. 

When I was working in the veterinary field, I worked with some vets who were really reticent to sedate animals for things like shaving mats or dental exam, like, I don't mean dental surgery, but like examining the mouth or things like that. And then I worked with other vets who were very pro that kind of thing. 

So, I think one of the reasons that the veterinarians that I worked with who are really hesitant to sedate, and they would do it as a last resort was a lot of different things. There were a lot of different reasons, one of which was their concern about the risks of anesthesia. And one of which was the concerns about recovery and how the clients would perceive their animal’s behavior as they were recovering from it. Concerns of cost, lots of things like that. 

And I think in general, you can't make blanket statements about anything because there are so many factors in every decision in life, right? But in general, how, what is your perception on how to, to do an ROI assessment, when we're considering all of those factors? How can we make decisions that acknowledge all of those risks, but still prioritize the animal's behavioral health?

[00:34:30] Valli: I think the way that I would maybe think about it is looking at the idea of sort of the wants versus needs, and be thinking about what are the, what are the reasons for why we might be considering sedation today? And is this something that can, is this something that can be done on a different day with maybe some pre visit medications instead? Or can this be done with a change in the protocol of whatever's happening? You know, if it's a situation where maybe the patient was being handled, you know, maybe the, maybe the handling style needs to be changed. Maybe they were trying to do handling style A, and maybe the pet would do better with a less is more, you know, less, more sort of handling sort of style. Or is it, is it truly this, this animal is really terrified of being there? Like they're not, maybe they're too stressed to eat, or they're too frightened, they're, they're actively trying to get away. Or they're actively showing aggressive behavior. I mean, every, every doctor has to go with what they feel most comfortable with. So that's, that's going to have to be the bottom line for, for anything. Whether, you know, whether I do it or another doctor does it, they need to feel comfortable. 

The, as far as looking at the ROI, you know, the return on investment, like I said, looking at the wants versus needs, I think, is important way of thinking about it. If they're talking about doing a sedated nail trim, then is it really something that needs to happen that day? Is it something that can be referred to a knowledgeable rewards-based trainer who can teach cooperative care and work with that? Is it something that the pet is, if the pet is healthy and young and the client has been, has been, has been advised of the potential risk and they want to go ahead with it. And we have a pet who's really, really upset about being in the clinic. That makes the, that would make the situation more positive for that pet in the future. 

So, I think that part of it is also thinking about sort of the long term versus the short term as well. Because I think that every, you know, I think, I think, I think the thing that gets, the thing that sometimes I think gets forgotten is that every negative experience the dog, the dog or cat has is going to be compounded every time they come back. And a lot of times people think about, well, this is something that only has to happen once a year until it isn't. And then all of a sudden, okay, we have a pet who has an illness that we have to draw blood every three months, or we have to go and have some really, you know, really intensive procedure done. And now we're in a position where we have a pet who's not comfortable being handled, having to be handled a lot. So, I'm, so I think that thinking about it in terms of what has to be done today, is it something that can be helped with a trainer who's knowledgeable in the field, and compassionate, and be able to do it appropriately. And then, is it something that by changing some of the protocols, changing the location, can we do that with minimizing stress to the patient? 

Or is it something that we, you know, I really, in most cases, I don't find a benefit in powering through. Usually there's, we need to figure out some way to manage the environment. Do we put up blankets over the recovery cages? Do we block their view? Do we have this, do we have a patient who we maybe have an area, like maybe an isolation room that, that patient can be uncrated? Do we have other options for some of these patients who maybe are showing stress in various situations?

[00:37:47] Emily: I love that. And now that we've addressed the veterinary side. I want to address the client side because a lot of times when we're working with pet parents where we're helping them with some kind of handling issue, or medication issue, or something like ear infections, they have to have the medication. Or, you know, the back end is so matted that the animal can't go to the bathroom, we've got to shave it, right? Clients are really concerned about either doing the work to gradually get the animal comfortable and participating willingly because they're like, no, this has to be done now. Or they're really hesitant to put the animal under anesthesia to get the procedure done because they're worried about the risks of anesthesia. 

And one of the things that we talk to clients about is if we can prevent your animal from having that bad experience, like you just said, and, and have it happen under anesthesia, so they don't know, for ear packing, or butt shaving, or whatever, right, nail trims even. That buys us the time to do the training so that you don't have to put them under anesthesia for this situation again, right? Do you have any additional food for thought for clients who may be in either of those positions?

[00:39:09] Valli: I think you know for for most of my clients those are the similar discussions that I'll have with them. Is that we're, if we can do all of this when they're asleep, then they're not going to feel the fear that right now they're feeling. And if it's something like a situation of mats, they might even feel better and have you, and be much more willing to allow you to start doing the training that you need to do to build up that trust and that confidence, to be able to then work, you know, work up to being able to brush them. 

And yeah, we're giving them now this, this window of opportunity, which you didn't have before. And also emphasizing to them that the sedation, the sedation procedure, the goal is not for it to be a lifelong thing that we have to do over, and over, and over again, but to be a part of a cohesive, cohesive, treatment package that includes, includes giving us the time to be able to complete that training so that eventually we don't need to do that sedation anymore. Because the truth of the matter is, if they don't do the training, then you will have to sedate every, every, you know, six months, or every four months, or however long it takes for this dog to get matted, for example. So, I think that it's really important for, for clients to understand, so this is the short term, this is the short term of what we're trying to do to make sure we have a long-term benefit, so that we don't have to keep doing this over and over again.

[00:40:30] Emily: Yeah. I love that.

[00:40:32] Valli: And, and I understand, I understand, I mean, a lot, with a, a big, with a big component of our patients, I think part of it also, part of the reluctance of, of clients to sometimes to work, do some of this work is not, is not so much that they don't want to do it, but a lot of times they've been the target of this, their pet's aggressive behavior. And so, they're, they're scared.

They're really nervous about trying to do that work on their own. So, sometimes you know, so one of the things that we're starting to do at our practice is actually having the trainers do the hands-on part of it. And so. Doing, having the trainers do the desensitization so that the client can watch but doesn't need to be a part of it.

And that way, building up that conf, they can see what you're doing and you don't have that association that the pet may already have with the person. Of, “Oh, something's going to happen that I'm really uncomfortable with.: So, we can build up a different set of associations and relationships, and then once the, the pets in a more comfortable place, then maybe reintroducing the person back into it after some of the hard desensitization has already been done.

[00:41:36] Emily: I love that. That is such a beautiful approach. We have a slightly different approach because we work with our clients remotely. And so, we can't do the work for them with their animal. But the way that we handle those situations is we teach the opt out first. So, we teach the escape plan first, and have the clients do it over, and over, and over, until they feel comfortable, and their pet feels comfortable. And then the mantra is when we're ready to start practicing the opting in part, the handling part, which is what makes people so nervous. The mantra is when in doubt, get them out. So yeah, so, like, we want them to get really confident in the opt out first so that the client's muscle memory, when they get nervous, is letting the animal leave. And that's, that's how we achieve a similar goal in a different way because we don't have the luxury of doing the work with the client's pet for them, but that's such a beautiful way to do it when you are in the same space as your client. I love to hear that. 

[00:42:41] Valli: Yeah, and I love that. I love that. I, the idea of opting out. Teaching that opting out first which is, is we don't do it, I don't think we phrase it in quite the same way, but we do have a lot of remote clients that we work with as well and, and sort of similarly is teaching them, teaching them what opting out looks like for this particular animal and being aware of it. So, it sounds like you teach like a functional, like you teach an actual opt out behavior.

[00:43:06] Emily: Yeah. So, we'll teach whatever the stop and start button, or whatever people want to call it. And we'll teach that first, and then anytime the human is close to the animal, we look for those like nervous, nervous, stuff, whatever that looks like for the individual. And then we have them practice that opt out, that escape. So, that the animal learns when I get this behavior, I can step off the target and that means the, you know, closeness stops. So, before we even start working on them handling or the medical treatments or whatever, we're just having them practice that they get fed when they opt in, and then they get fed when they, when they get too nervous or too uncomfortable, they get fed to leave. 

[00:43:52] Valli: Yeah, that's, that's similar to what we do also with, with sort of the start button, and sort of the start button, stop button idea. Yeah.

[00:43:59] Emily: We also have something called a flight cue. And we have a thank you for barking pro, there's a lot of different ways to teach animals how to say no or to opt out, right? So, it's not, it doesn't look like one thing, but we want them to get fluent at leaving first. Which is not only good for the pet, but it's also good for the human to feel less nervous about doing the handling stuff.

[00:44:23] Valli: Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's really, and that also kind of circles back to that idea of, of you know, being able to say no. That it's okay for your pet to say no. And you want your pet to be able to say no, because if you, if they have the ability to say no, then they're going to be able to say yes. You can't say yes. If you can't say no. In my opinion.

[00:44:41] Emily: All right. So, at the beginning, we talked about your, your little teenager, your doofus tell me about that journey. 

[00:44:49] Valli: Oh, that's been a journey. Oh my gosh, I know that listeners can't see, but I have this big goofy grin on my face right now. It's, so yeah, he's, so his journey was, has been really interesting.

So, I actually got him when he was about seven months old. He is a, he's a Dutch shepherd. He's, and the reason why, it was, it was interesting because I've always really liked herding dogs in general. And we had lost our, we had lost our, our dog previously, two years before. We had had to, to euthanize him for medical reasons. And we, I wasn't sure whether or not we were ready for another dog. And one of my trainers, Lorenzo, had just adopted this, this just Dutch Shepherd puppy from a breeder in Colorado. And I was, and he was just a wonderful little dog. Absolutely wonderful. And so, what happened was that this, that my dog Phoenix got returned to the breeder, and he had had he'd, he'd broken his leg when he was a young puppy, so he'd had this, this trauma of this, of this four-leg break. And then he also was proving to be a lot for the person to, to handle. 

And so, the breeder took this dog back and, and my trainers, Lorenzo was like, "Well, you know, one of the puppies came back and do you want one?" 

I said, "Sure." 

Well, actually I didn't say sure. I said, " Yeah, let me think about that for a while." 

But we, we thought about it and decided that it was, it was gonna be fun. And so, you know, I got this puppy somewhat sight unseen, but knowing something about, you know, having some background on, on the litter in general, and also background on the fact that we probably are going to have some behavioral concerns because he had some, he had some separation related distress, an isolation distress and also, you know, with this front leg break, I didn't know what sort of long term physical complications there might be. So, and I really, you know, I, I previously, all my last previous dogs were dogs that were various rescues. And so, I hadn't I hadn't actually gotten a dog from a breeder before, and I really wanted to support this particular breeder because she was very involved with wanting to make sure that her puppies went to positive only homes. And which is pretty, from my understanding, pretty rare for, for working dogs. So, that was something that I wanted to support as well. 

So yeah, we, we got him, and he's been, you know, my first, people sometimes ask, you know, "Well, your dog is, lives with a veterinary behaviorist. He must be very well mannered."

And I'm like, "No, he's not necessarily." 

But, or they'd be like, "Oh, what are you teaching him?"

And actually for the first six, six to 12 months, we actually didn't do a whole lot of training, training with him. A lot of people, you know, they, they're going out and doing training classes and things like that, which is, which can be really awesome. With him, what I wanted him to learn was what it was like to live in our house, because we're not, we're not like really, really, really, really active people. And so, I wanted him to know how to settle in the house, and how to, you know, how to, how to be able to, you know, entertain himself, how to be able to respond when we asked him to come.

So, some cues we did teach, but he came to us, he was already on behavioral medications because his emotional arousal was so high. So, so when we got him at six months of age, he was already starting some behavioral medication. And so, we knew that we wanted to just make sure his life was as quiet as possible during that transition period, and also assess his separation anxiety, which, which we're, is getting better, but we're still working through. And you know, and then as we, as we went on, gradually increasing his life. 

But the other big part of it was teaching him to be able to, A, be able to opt out and understand how to opt out. Because there's, he's the most appeasing dog I've ever lived with. There's, you know, this, there's, it's something that is there, I think in all of his litter mates, but there's a very strong appeasing component to his behavior, which he's a dog where if I really pushed him, he would let me do pretty much anything to him. Whether he liked it or not, and I feel like I need to really be careful and very much respect that. Because I want him to know that he does have a choice because I think with, as part of his temperament and his genetics, he will give that choice away. And I don't want that for him, so I don't know where I was going with that, but I feel like it's important.

[00:49:03] Emily: I, it is important and I love it so much because one of the things that I feel passionately about, for lack of a better term, is seeing past the breed and being able to just make sure that all of an animal's needs are being met. And that they know how to exist in their environment. And they know how to rest. And they know that they have autonomy, regardless of what breed they are. Because I feel like so many working breeds and herding breeds people see the breed first, and they're like, we gotta give them lots of exercise. We got to train them. We got to make sure that they have so many activities. 

And it's like, well, okay, but do they know how to sleep? Do they know that they have an off button? Do they know how to do things on their own? Like and what's funny to me is that so far in my experience, veterinary behaviorists are the best people to own working breed dogs, because that's what veterinary behaviorists prior like Ken and Debbie Martin had four Malinois, and those were some of the most chill dogs I've ever met because they knew how to relax. And they knew they could do stuff on their own. And they knew that they didn't always have to be on. So, I love hearing your story with your Dutchy because same thing. This, this guy came to you with very typical issues that we typically see in working breed dogs, and your response to that was not like, let's get him into a show ring as soon as possible.

[00:50:27] Valli: Yeah, just trying to trying to, you know, focus on helping him be the best dog that he could be living in our household. And, you know, and also figuring him, you know, figuring out who he was. Because in those first few weeks, he's still adjusting quite a bit. And figuring out what is it that he enjoys, and we're still figuring that out. We're still figuring out what it is that he enjoys. What is it that really motivates him? What are the things that you know, what are the things that really make him click, because they're things that, you know, they're things that we haven't tried yet. It's going to be, it's going to be the rest of his life is figuring out new things about him. And so, it's really, it's really, been a fun, it's been a fun journey so far, and I'm looking forward to hopefully many more years.

[00:51:06] Emily: Yeah. I'm looking forward to seeing how he develops as he grows. And yes, that, that idea of really just exploring who are you as an individual? What do you want? What do you care about? What are you motivated by? And that, like you said, it, it changes and evolves and we learn more about them every day. That we share our lives with them. It's beautiful. 

[00:51:29] Valli: Yeah. And he's actually, what's been really interesting over the last couple weeks actually is a really neat tie in with what I do. Because he's been, he's been having some we're suspecting some pain situations going on. And so, one of the things that we started was we started a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory trial with him just a few days ago, and he was having some very high arousal behaviors, jumping, snapping at me, like a lot of behaviors that he used to do as a puppy that he hasn't really done quite some time. Which is why I was like, "Okay, something's up."

But yeah, we put him on some meds and that's completely gone away again. So, it's, you know, just a really great, while it was suspecting pain, it was just a really great example of how physical conditions can really impact behavior. And, and, sometimes I think people, you, you know, other people in that situation may have been like, "Oh, well, you know, he's a two-year-old Dutchie. He needs to have more exercise." And in his case, more exercise was actually making it worse. Yeah. 

[00:52:23] Emily: Yeah. And that's not to say that you can't work them up to being high energy, high functioning, working dogs who do things, but let's take care of the foundations first. Before we work them up to whatever it is that we want them to do. I'm definitely not against giving dogs a job. Like that's not the point of what I'm saying, right? 

[00:52:43] Valli: No, I think, I think we, well, we actually, we joke quite a bit that his job is, is snuggling us. So, he's, so and he takes his job very, very seriously. So, I, I do think that, I think that it is important that they have something that they, they feel like they can do, and they can do well. You know, whether it's interactive toys or whether it's some sort of social interaction or whether it's training or, or, what have you figuring out what it is that works really well for that dog, for that dog at that time.

[00:53:09] Emily: Yes, exactly. Because our needs change as we age and as our, you know, reality changes. My needs as a woman in her mid-40s is very different than my needs as a teenager.

[00:53:21] Valli: Right, yeah, and it's definitely for him as well. As he's gotten older and a little bit more settled. But it's been, it's been just a really interesting It's just been very interesting watching him because he's, he fits, there's so many patterns that I see in him that I see in a lot of my patients as well. And just to, to sort of see it and see it firsthand has been very interesting.

[00:53:41] Emily: Yeah. I love it. Thank you for sharing that journey. So, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:53:50] Valli: I would love people to look at, to look at your animal with new eyes. So, try to, try to look past maybe what you think you know, or you think you know about your pet. And see what they're actually telling you. Look at their body language. Look at, if you don't, if you're not sure about body language of your particular species, you know, you can Google body language rabbits, body language horses, and, you know, read maybe a range of information about what, what's out there. Lili Chin has a bunch of wonderful infographics about different body language of, I think, several different species she's come out with now. So those are some really great just sort of general resources. She also has some books out on body language of, of dogs, and I believe she just came out with body language of cats as well. And so, I think that those are some good resources for dogs and cats at least. 

But you know, looking at, looking at your pet's body language, and looking at it objectively. Because things, things that you think your pet may like, they may just tolerate. I always joke about fine as a four-letter word. Because people will always say, "Oh, my dog is fine." And I'm like, "Okay, is your dog fine? Or does that mean your dog is actually comfortable? Or your dog is actually tolerating it? Because if your dog is just tolerating it, your dog is actually not fine."

So being able to um, look at your pet and determine whether they're actually comfortable with the situation or comfortable with an interaction, and, and then make, you know, use that information to make changes.

So, my, my guy, he'll, whenever I got him, and even now, if I approach him when he's on the bed, and I don't know where this ever came from, but whenever I approach him when he's on his bed, he'll immediately roll over on his back, and his ears will go back, and his tail will tuck, and he'll show really strong appeasement behavior. And so, for the first, you know, most people, I think, would say, "Oh, look, he wants me to pet him on the belly." And, you know, maybe, maybe that's part of it, but for him, I just didn't feel comfortable doing that. to, to engage with him that way when he was showing such strong behaviors, and so I just leave him alone.

And so, now he has gotten to a point where I'll approach him and he'll actually be like, "Hey, what's going on?" Rather than rolling over and tucking his tail and all of this. So, you know, looking at, and, and again, this is a dog that doesn't show any, hasn't shown any aggressive behavior or anything along those lines. He probably would have been, he probably would have let me pet him, but would he, would he have been comfortable about it? I don't, I didn't want to, I didn't want to push him to feel uncomfortable. 

So, so yeah, so, so taking a nice, you know, taking an objective look on what your pet is actually saying. Looking for those subtle signs of body language to indicate comfort versus discomfort. And then, and then starting to really advocate for your pet as well, if you know that, if you know that your pet is uncomfortable going to the vet's office, let's say, then maybe reaching out to your vet and saying, "Can, is there anything that we can do to make their next visit easier? Is there anything that we can prepare for? Is there anything that we can give to make that visit more comfortable?"

And so, so taking, you know, being, being able to advocate for your pet, I think, is a big, is a big thing, too. And being aware that, and also just being aware that we can make differences. We can change this behavior. They don't have to, you don't have to go through your entire life with a dog who bites you when you're trying to groom them. Or their dog is, you know, can't go to the vet. Or you can't do your dog's nails. Or you can't do your cat's nails. Those are things that you can change. And it's possible to change. Even if the behaviors are pretty significant, we can change them.

[00:57:21] Emily: Yeah. And I think I'm going to add to what you said, that if you haven't heard our episode with Sara McLoudrey yet, I recommend that you go back and listen to it because she goes into a lot more depth about what that can look like. And we talk about my own dog, Copper, who broke his nail three times. And so, teaching him to voluntarily participate in nail trims stopped being reasonable, but teaching him to allow us to do it, and then let us know when he needs a break became doable. So, for those of you who are really loving what Dr. Valli has to say, and you want more details about this particular topic, it's in Sara's episode. 

Okay. So, we have a professional development program called PETPro, and we let people in that program submit questions for our guests. And the most popular question for you was, what is the most common behavior issues you see in cats? And we already kind of answered that at the beginning, that you see a lot of aggression in kitties. But the follow up question to that was, what can we as behavior professionals do to help clients prevent this issue from developing or identify and address it early on? 

[00:58:36] Valli: Yeah, that's really great. I would, I would like to, I'd like to add something in if you don't mind. So aggressive behavior definitely is, is one of the number one things I see. The other really big thing I see is, you know, is house soiling in cats. So, those are the two big ones. 

As far as the aggressive behavior how, as far as prevention, I think that one of the big things, if you have, if you have people in this group that are working with kittens or young cats, really going ahead and, and talking about body language and helping clients understand the, what, about kitty body language, what that looks like. A lot of, especially for young cats, a lot of the aggressive behavior is play based. So, really educating clients on how to appropriately play with their kittens, how to, what, how to, what to avoid playing with kittens. 

And then also, if they're not having those issues to advise clients that, hey, these are things that can actually be helped because we do know that when clients have been interviewed that they, they don't, they don't realize that, that the cat's behaviors can be changed. Now, that might be different if you have cat clients who are actually working with your with your members with their cats. But, I think that it's still important for them to, to know that, yeah, these are kittens, but hey, we can have significant behavior problems that can also still be addressed. So, I think, I think a big part of it is just having clients understand that behavioral conditions in cats can be treated. There are strategies around that. 

As far as for house soiling making sure clients understand again that there are, there are things that can be done and that the first thing to do is to talk to your vet. And make sure you have a really, a really good veterinary workup for a cat who's having any sort of elimination problem. 

I would say for a cat who's having aggression, aggressive behavior as well especially if we're talking about a cat who's maybe has turned, has started to show aggressive behavior when they hadn't previously, or is showing persistent aggressive behavior, then having them followed up with a veterinarian as well is going to be really important because we do know that there are, that cats can show signs of arthritic change as early as six months of age. So, we can have, we can have pain related conditions, endocrine related conditions, that all those that can lead to behavioral change and, and aggressive behavior, house soiling. So, having your primary vet involved is going to be really important for behavior cases, especially in cats, because also cats really hide, are good at hiding when they're sick. 

[01:01:00] Emily: Yeah. We've talked about it on this podcast before, and we've written a blog about what pain looks like in dogs, and how sometimes people don't recognize pain because it might look like something else. But I'm just realizing we've never done that for cats. So, what signs can people look for to assess pain in their cats that they may need to seek veterinary help for. 

[01:01:26] Valli: So, some ones that are really great to kind of keep an eye on is what, how, how does the cat look when they're moving? So, do they seem like they're moving smoothly, or do they seem kind of stiff when they move? Or do they seem kind of awkward while they're moving? You know, cats are generally quite graceful. So, if we have a cat that looks somewhat different, then that might indicate that we have some pain. Seeing whether or not when they're leaping up onto or coming down off of surfaces, whether they're leaping, you know, taking a flying leap off of those or onto those or are they, are they, taking a while to kind of assess whether or not they can make a jump. They're doing a lot of mental calculations about that and then jumping. Or if they're kind of coming down, if they're coming down off of the vertical surface for partway and then leaping off, those are indications that your cat might be, those are a few indications that your cat might be painful. 

Also changes in activity, general activity level. So, if your cat used to be one that used to run around a lot and recently hasn't been running around very much, or maybe they used to climb onto areas, or maybe they used to jump up onto areas that they now aren't jumping up to as much anymore, those might be some indications as well.

Sometimes not using the litter box can be a sign because maybe they're not comfortable, physically comfortable posturing in the in the box. So, that could be a potential sign. Any increased aggressive behavior can be a sign. So, there are a lot of different potential signs that are there for pain. But as far as movement, those are a couple of the big ones that I think about is especially their behavior jumping up to and jumping onto and off of.

[01:03:01] Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that. What you were just talking about reminded me, one of the most memorable lunch and learns I've ever attended as a vet tech, was when, I can't remember her name, was when a vet who specializes in feline medicine came and talked to us about litter boxes and how to set up litter boxes. And one of the things that she had was a piece of plastic that was the same height relative to human average height as the edge of a litter box is to the average height of a cat. And she was like, imagine having to climb over this every time you wanted to just go to the bathroom. And it was like, almost to my chin, because I'm a short stack, right? 

And then she was like, now imagine trying to do that if you're in pain. And I was mind blown. I was mind blown! It has never left me. I always look at cat boxes now and I'm like, would this cat be a good candidate for a cat box with a ramp? Because, can we expect them to climb something that high if they're experiencing pain? Right? Powerful lunch and learn! Yeah. All right, at the end of every interview, I like to ask the same set of questions to see what everybody says. The first one is what is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or enrichment? Your choice. 

[01:04:19] Valli: This topic, my profession, or enrichment? Let's pick enrichment for a moment. I think that, so enrichment, plays a large role in, in my treatment plans for my pets. I always include enrichment ideas, talk to them about enrichment sometimes because I feel sometimes, because some of the enrichment that maybe they have been doing, I'm going to ask them to reduce. And so, we want to make sure that there's some sort of enrichment that's still available for this pet because if we don't help them figure out something to do, they're going to do something else on their own. 

So, enrichment, you know, I think about how do we, how do we use their brains in a way that is productive and tiring, but then also enrichment seems, enrichment tends to decrease anxiety as well. And so, since a lot of our patients tend to be anxious, patient’s enrichment is something that's really important from the treatment perspective that way too. 

I do know that there are so many species that are really impoverished with their enrichment. Dogs, you know, there's been a lot of talk about enrichment in dogs. I think that there are a lot of people who, there's a lot of understanding that dogs need enrichment, which is great. I do think that people understand the need for toys with cats, but I still think that their enrichment is, is not where it could be for most cats. 

I would say enrichment for horses can be incredibly impoverished. Same for birds. With horses, so much of their enrichment comes from social interactions, and from being able to graze and move, and there are horses that don't have those opportunities. And so, I think that if we have a situation where we are unable to provide the, you know, ability to graze and move or the ability to have social interactions, then we got to provide other avenues for them to be able to have enrichment. And same with birds. There's so much, you know, we know that in the wild, birds are spending 60 to 70 percent of their time foraging at least. And so, if they're in a cage, they need to be able to, or in some sort of enclosure, they need to be able to spend a lot of time foraging. So, one of the, the key things that I talk about with my clients is how do we set up foraging toys?

What, what do we do for this particular bird? If they're not comfortable with foraging toys, which is a big issue with some of these birds that I meet, because they're very, they're very neophobic. And so, how do we introduce those toys? How do we make it so that they can, we can start working towards them actually foraging for their food? And building up their confidence that way, because it all, it all kind of comes together. The more that they can interact with, the more their confidence is going to grow. So, enrichment from that perspective is something that is really important for, for me and, and what I think about with my patients.

[01:06:50] Emily: I love that. Thank you. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[01:06:54] Valli: I think that unfortunately, when people have a pet who is exhibiting problem behavior, especially with dogs, and with horses, I think they, they kind of see coming to a veterinary behaviorist as a last resort, rather than coming to them as a first resort, because there is so much, because you can, you know, the time that we have with our pets is so short. Relatively speaking, we only have, you know, for, if we're talking about dogs, we have maybe 15 years with them, if we're lucky. And so, we have a really short time, amount of time with these pets, and so do, you know, if we can have a pet that, that maybe we use medicine as a last resort, maybe we've tried training for seven years. Finally saying, "Okay, I want to try something different." 

Or if we used, if we used, went to a veterinary behaviorist as a first resort, maybe we could get this dog much further along when they're two or three years old rather than, you know, to work against seven years of experience. So, thinking about, and not just, just the medicine perspective, but being able to, to look at pain, looking, looking at whether or not there's anything else physical that might be contributing to behavior. Looking at whether or not there are behavior, you know, what behavioral, what, what can we tweak in the training that you've been doing already to make this more successful?

What are ways that we can manage the environment better? So, while I think people think about veterinary behaviorists in terms of just the medications that we prescribe, there's actually a wide range of, of advice that we give to clients. And unfortunately, some of that doesn't seem to be recognized.

[01:08:25] Emily: Yeah. I, that is one thing that I talk to clients about all the time, is that veterinary behaviorists are not just as dispensers for psychopharmacology, right? Like, every veterinary behaviorist that I have worked with, I have learned from them either new kind of depths of information about the behavioral issues that we work with. Or different approaches to how we work on those behaviors, different tools, or different aspects of the intersection between medicine and behavior. It has been such an enriching experience to work collaboratively with veterinary behaviorists. And not just for me, but for my clients, too. It's not just about finding the person who's going to give you the best meds. Although, certainly, that's usually true. Most effective medication protocols typically come from the people who specialize in behavioral medication, but it's the whole package of the intersection between medicine and behavior and how you work through those behavior issues. So. 

[01:09:25] Valli: And kind of going back to what you were saying before about us having a little bit more time to, to, to observe these patients and speak with the clients is that we are able to some, I, you know, I am able to pick up, oh, you know, maybe there's some pain going on, or, oh, you know, this has been, I know this has been this, this gastrointestinal condition has been something that's kind of been on again, off again for the last couple of years, this may actually be something that we should start focusing on. And so, helping guide, helping guide, and, and put a, you know, help prioritize and guide the, the medicine also of it, as well as the behavior side of it is really what we, we do, what we do is try to, try to, how do we integrate both of those things and help, help, we, we look at the whole animal as much as we can and, and how it all, all the interplays that we have.

[01:10:12] Emily: Yes, I love that. What do you love about what you do? 

[01:10:15] Valli: Oh my gosh. It's so, I mean, it's just rewarding. It's rewarding. It's so, you know, whenever, whenever I come back and, you know, whenever I come to the office and I get an, and we get an email saying, "Oh, you know, Fluffy is doing just so great with, with this". 

And "Oh, oh, I can take a walk down the road and I never thought I could." 

And "Hey, we just had a successful vet visit. And we, you know, and two years ago we wouldn't have been able to walk in their door."

" Hey, I can leave Fluffy home alone now where I wasn't, where they would scream every time and now, I can leave them home for four hours." 

You know, I mean, just hearing, hearing how we've been able to, to just be able to, to take these behaviors and be able to you know, help these, these patients, and these clients where their bond has been really stressed and really has been really, in some cases, almost completely ruptured and to be able to repair that and to be able to then, you, you know, take often times clients who have no hope. Often times we're the last people that they come to and say, "Hey, you know, let's, let's try. Let's, let's see where we can get."

And then be able to have them come back and say, "I had never thought that I had been able to do this. Or, you know, I wish that I had done this five years ago." 

And say, you know, you've come to me now and look what we can do. And now you have a dog that was so much more like what you want. You know, this is such a, such a better, you know, you have so much better understanding of your dogs now, and so the rest of your dog's years are going to be wonderful. So, just being able to, to help that.

[01:11:34] Emily: It's, it's so fulfilling. What are you currently working on? If people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you? 

[01:11:42] Valli: So, our website is SynergyBehavior.com. And our email is info, I N F O, at synergybehavior.com, and our phone number is 503 336 1202. I'm doing veterinary behavior consults, so we call them behavior health assessments, and that's my, the full veterinary behavior specialist appointments where we'll, we'll discuss the, what's going on, we'll do, if you're local to Portland, we'll do thermal imaging.

We'll, I do have some online offering, some online options as well. But basically get you and your pet under the care of our, of our practice. And work together with you, with our trainers, with our, with our practice to be able to, to make a comprehensive training treatment plan for you. So, we, we have that. We have also a service for that, for our in, again, in person, in the Portland area, Portland, Vancouver area for vet care consultations.

So, specifically targeted towards vet care. Our trainers do in person as well as virtual appointments. And you're able to, and people are able to work directly with them. So, that's also a possibility. And then, like I said, the thermal imaging is something that we've, we've been doing with our, our clients, and something that we're hoping to do in this new year is opening it up to local, for local hospitals to refer to this as well, to get thermal imaging done on their patients. So, if to help for diagnostics, so some of the things that. we're doing, we have classes also that we run on online and in person for reactive dogs and other topics as well.

[01:13:15] Emily: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. It's been so great. 

[01:13:20] Valli: Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me I was really excited to do this and I'm glad that we had the opportunity to chat. It's been wonderful.

[01:13:26] Emily: Yeah, I look forward to our ongoing collaboration.

[01:13:29] Valli: Absolutely. Take care.

[01:13:32] Allie: Okay, what did I tell you about how cool it is how Dr. Valli works with so many different species? I absolutely love her approach of looking at the whole animal and all of those different factors that are involved.

And I think that the give and take between meeting physical needs, and behavioral needs is one that a lot of people struggle with because those two things can sometimes be such at odds with one another. You know, you need to have this pet go into a vet for xyz, but the pet says absolutely no to vet visits and how do we deal with that?

So I’m so glad that we got to hear Dr. Valli's approach to that as well. Next week we will be talking about how to have happier vet visits.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.