#92 - Thea Harting: Rabbit Speed Dating

Thea Harting, also known as the Badass Bunny Rescuer,  is a rabbit behavior consultant based in Brooklyn, NY. Thea is passionate about improving companion rabbit well-being and welfare, focusing on pair bonding, enrichment, low-stress handling techniques, and cooperative care. As an active volunteer for shelters and rescues for over a decade, her favorite activity is facilitating rabbit 'speed dates' to determine partner compatibility. Her approach to rabbit bonding emphasizes agency, mutual consent, and enrichment.

In this episode, you’re going to hear Emily and Thea talk about:

• Bunny enrichment ideas
• What do bunny speed dating and dog park design have in common?
• You can’t be your own bun-havior consultant
• Why bunnies need our help
• Thea and Emily’s elevator pitch for why to adopt or foster bunnies

You can find the full episode show notes here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Thea: So, one of the primary messages that we always tell adopters is that we need to let the rabbit choose their partner. And when we do that, the bonding is much easier. Because bonding is tough. When you get the rabbits home, you have to do these very short dates. And it, it's stressful for the human. And there's sometimes setbacks. It's like half a step ahead, full step back sometimes. It's, it's stressful. And sometimes it can be very drawn out. So, we want to, we want to make it easy and as low stress as possible for people. And speed dating helps with that. But the, the real reason is, it's not just so it makes the process easier, it's because it's really the only opportunity we have to watch rabbits using choice and control, doing enrichment activities, like in action, in person. There are no, they don't really have good informational resources about rabbit behavior, so each of these speed dates becomes a lesson for everyone involved, and there are usually a lot of people there. Recently we've been setting up chairs so like everyone can watch. It's, It's, it's really entertaining and becomes a bit of a social event. We should probably start serving food or something like that. And then we learn like how each rabbit as individuals express themselves. Because there are differences between individuals and we see some behaviors more with some and some with others. And so it's a great learning opportunity and like a community activity that draws people together. 

[00:01:21] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:39] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:40] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

 Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Thea Harting. Thea Harting, also known as the Badass Bunny Rescuer, is a rabbit behavior consultant based in Brooklyn, New York. Thea is passionate about improving companion rabbit well being and welfare, focusing on pair bonding, enrichment, low stress handling techniques, and cooperative care.

With over 20 years of experience living with rabbits and hands on interaction with over 1, 000 rabbits, Thea is dedicated to solving behavior problems, enhancing resilience to stress, and empowering rabbits in their daily lives. Recognized as an expert in rabbit care and rabbit bonding, she has been featured in prominent publications such as the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. As an active volunteer for shelters and rescues for over a decade, her favorite activity is facilitating rabbit speed dates to determine partner compatibility. Her approach to rabbit bonding emphasizes agency, mutual consent, and enrichment. 

Okay, just from her bio, you can tell that Thea is 100 percent our people, and I absolutely love the work that she's doing with rabbits. We are fortunate enough to be working with her in PETPro, our mentorship program. And she is just a ray of sunshine and I just love everything that she is doing. So, I am so glad that y'all get to hear what she is doing with rabbits.

In this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Thea talk about bunny enrichment ideas. What do bunny speed dating and dog park design have in common? You can't be your own bun havior consultant, why bunnies need our help, and Thea and Emily's elevator pitch for why to adopt or foster bunnies. Alright, here it is, today's episode, Thea Harting, Rabbit Speed Dating.

Content warning, for this episode, there is some mild swearing, which you've already heard a bit because Thea is the Badass Bunny Rescuer. 

[00:03:53] Emily: Okay. Tell us your name, pronouns, and pet.

[00:03:56] Thea: My name is Thea Harting my pronouns are she her and my current foster rabbit is named Lucy. And she looks like a little nymph with beautiful red eyes and a faux paw. She's really fun to hang out with and watch her explore and run around.

[00:04:12] Emily: That's so cute. Is she all white, like albino?

[00:04:15] Thea: Almost her ears are black and she's got like a dusty tail.

[00:04:19] Emily: Oh, that's so cute. I was just curious because of the red eyes, but, oh, that's so sweet. All right. Well, tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:04:28] Thea: Well, I, I think my story is a little bit different than many other people's stories who work with animals. I didn't grow up as a big animal person. I didn't have a, my family wasn't really into animals. We didn't have cats or dogs. We had rabbits, a few rabbits and, like, hamsters and gerbils. And I was into these pets, especially the rabbit that we adopted in high school.

But they, I wasn't, it just wasn't a strong interest of mine until later in my life. So the next thing, a few years after college I stumbled upon this website called rabbit. org where they show these great images of rabbits living alongside people, doing rabbity things, lounging around, sleeping, relaxing, eating, like inside people's homes. And I loved it and I thought, "Oh, I want that." So in 2002 I adopted my first rabbit as an adult. Her name was Imelda Marcos. We were in love, and she was just a very human oriented rabbit and I loved spending time with her. And so that was really a turning point for me because it led me to the world of Rabbit Rescue. Which I think is a fascinating subculture that I love and I'm a part of. And I started going to like rabbit conferences and I read everything that I could about rabbit, living with rabbits and making their lives better. I was on listservs reading every single thing and I just loved it. I just really wanted her to be happy. And I was fascinated with her. And then a few years later, I started volunteering with rabbits.

I just, I wanted to learn more about rabbits. I couldn't find information. I read everything. Like I was like, what else is there? I just, I want to be around more rabbits, get to know them. I didn't have any direction with it, I just thought it was something that I wanted to do. It would be a nice hobby. My life didn't have much direction at that point. First, I'll say that, so when I started volunteering, I did two types of volunteering. I volunteered with a private rescue in New York City. I also volunteered at the city shelter called the Animal Care Centers in New York City. And so, I basically did that, I, I got really into it,

and I basically did that as a part time job for many years, like that. And I started shadowing one volunteer who was doing speed dates and I loved it. And so gradually over the course of a few years, I just got more and more involved with speed dates. Again, I didn't realize I was doing it. I just like, this is so amazing, I love this. I met eventually in 2016 when the Animal Care Centers expanded into Brooklyn. I was like the Brooklyn volunteer in charge of rabbit speed dating and I loved it. And I did several a month. It was just my weekend activity. It's just what I did. 

Another important event for me was one day, like, long before I started doing speed dates, I heard about this class at Hunter, it was a graduate class in applied behavior, applied animal behavior and welfare, and I had no idea that this was a thing. I had no idea that there was a career in this particular field, and I was like, this is fascinating. So I, I audited the class, and it was a whole new world for me. I had no idea how practical science was in like everyday life. And although rabbits were never mentioned in the course, like I thought everything was about rabbits.

I could see it. It was so useful, especially questions about what good rabbit welfare is. So, which is a question that's been really bugging me ever since. And so this was, it was just very. It was overwhelming. I didn't know anyone else who had the same vocabulary I did then. And about the same time I took that class, I started working as a dog walker. It was just a fluke. I didn't think that was related at all to anything. And as it turns out, I loved working with dogs and I saw many parallels with rabbits. And then I also stumbled upon Susan Friedman. So if you're reading her of course that was, that has not stopped. And so that really framed my work with animals. It was this slightly more academic applied behavior analysis and applied animal behavior. And then just on, lots and lots of hands on experience with dogs and with rabbits, especially with rabbits. 

So later when the pandemic started, I was, of course, had a lot of extra time on my hands. And so, I started taking all these online classes and it was great. So I took classes, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants. And I took Living and Learning, which was amazing. I threw myself into that and got more serious about being a Rabbit Behavior Consultant. And that was tricky because I didn't feel like I had any role models. It's not like dog training, it's not structured the same way. There's not as much emphasis on reducing problematic behavior. It's just a different ballgame. Using the same principles, but it's, it's a little different. So, and that's where I am now.

[00:09:07] Emily: Yeah. I can really relate to that feeling of coming into animal training, not from the dog training world, because even though I grew up working in animal welfare, a lot of different fields. I grew up working with dogs and living with dogs. And I certainly had dog trainers and telling me how to train dogs, and I would give dog training advice when I was a vet tech. I wasn't immersed in the positive reinforcement based, force free, LIMA, LIFE, whatever you want to call us, that community. When I entered philosophy of using science and ethics to inform how we interact with and teach animals, I didn't come in through dog training.

I came in through primarily parrots and horses. And so when in 2013, I met Allie at the sanctuary where we worked and I transferred into the dog training department. I, I, there was a little bit of culture shock of like, Oh, all of the, like, science based, whatever we want to call us, science and ethics, like, training crowd, like, we're not, we don't all have the same lens, and we don't all have the same paradigm and approach, because it's very different coming in from the world of exotics than it is from starting in the R plus dog training community, there's just a very different culture. 

So I definitely can relate to that part of your story. But also I think I, what I love about your story is that you really prioritize rabbits, and I think rabbits need more people like you. So I love that about your story and about your background because yeah, I agree with you that we think differently about pet rabbits than about pet dogs, and that if a dog, if people get a dog, they have some sense that they need to train a dog, even if they don't understand the concepts of enrichment, or welfare and wellbeing, they at least know that they need to do something to help their dog fit into their household.

And I don't think there's that much of an awareness for other species. So glad you exist. I'm glad you do what you do. And I am so excited to get to talk to you about rabbits because we have lots of dog people on this podcast. We have a fair amount of zoo people. And we have some bird folks and some cow folks, but you're the only person I know who is both a rabbit person and a behavior person. So this is an extra special treat for me.

So to kick things off let's talk about rabbit enrichment. Tell me all the things. What should every bunny person know about enrichment? And also you mentioned like, what does rabbit welfare and well being look like? And that's a harder question than it, or that's a harder answer than it seems to a somewhat straightforward question. So, so yeah, talk to me about all of that.

[00:12:03] Thea: So rabbit enrichment involves rabbits doing all of their species typical behaviors in safe and appropriate ways. It's really important and we don't usually think of enrichment as a behaviors, but rather as certain objects that we give our rabbits or toys. And I'm putting that in quotes. So it's really a paradigm shift to think about encouraging behaviors like chewing, digging, eating, hopping on top of things to perch. Hiding, especially hiding and escaping, all those behaviors that rabbits do a lot and occasionally they're, they just don't do them enough. So we really want more of these behaviors in ways that aren't, destructive to our homes.

[00:12:42] Emily: I think it's interesting because one of the biggest challenges with my bun is trying to figure out how to give him a burrow like experience and yet that's so fundamental to who bunnies are. And so, so yeah, I, I understand like what We think of when we think of rabbits is like, they run around a lot. They, they're fast little buggers and they live in little Warren's underground. And like, at least for me, like, that's what I think of, right.

And those are sometimes two of the most. The biggest challenges for like how to meet those needs. And I see parallels between rabbits and birds in that way, because when you think of birds, the first thing you think of is that they fly, and yet that can be one of the biggest enrichment challenges for birds is how do you help them fly? So, what are some suggestions that you have for helping people to meet those needs when it may not be the easiest thing to do in your environment with your, with your bunnies in your house?

[00:13:43] Thea: Well, let's see. The first thing I would do is to really encourage foraging in all sorts of different ways. One of them is the litter box, which you can fill with hay. Rabbits use litter boxes. It's one of their, their perks. And they will spend approximately, wild rabbits spend approximately six hours a day just foraging and eating grass. So, we should aim for something like that with rabbits. And in their litter box, they'll say, big pile of hay in a big litter box, the size of an under bed storage box and they'll just eat, move the hay around, manipulate it with their mouths, and eat, and go to the bathroom and just eat, and eat, and eat, and choose, parts of the hey that are the tastiest, and then go to the other parts there. It's a very, so it's a lot of mental stimulation too. It's just eating hay, it's not just eating. It's foraging. 

Another thing that I like to do to encourage foraging is with the rabbit pellets which they get a very small portion of everyday, is scattering that, or putting it in egg cartons, or hiding it a little bit, or just putting in another toy so that they have to look for it, maybe move another object around to get to it, maybe chew through a paper bag to get to it and flip things up in the air so that they crash down and get the pellets. 

And then I also like to use snuffle mats for pellets or for foraging mix or I really like giving rabbits now dandelion root or burdock root, like little pieces, scattering that around. It's also, it's very handy for, if you need a rabbit to be out of the kitchen while you're cooking, or you need them to go back into their enclosure, or primary living area. Those things are, are very helpful, can be do a lot of problem solving. 

[00:15:23] Emily: What about my, uh, my biggest challenge, which is finding a way for my kiddo to, to burrow into a space because here's the thing, he has big litter boxes. He's a smallish dude. So, the, I use them, the like painting trays and those are big enough for him to sprawl out and cause he's on the smallish side for buns.

And when I first, first got him, he was pottying right by the gate. And after I got a second litter box and put both of them on either side of his hay rack, something clicked in his head and he just immediately started using them. And it's, I realized that it's exactly because of what you talked about. He likes to be in the litter box, sprawled out, and then he just reaches over and he just pulls hay from his hay rack into the box. And then he like eats his hay and his little litter box.

And for some reason, it was really important to him that he have a litter box on each side, so he can do that on each side. And once I set it up like that has never had a potty accident outside of the box since then. So, you were with me on the whole journey of like getting him settled into the house and figuring out the pottying stuff.

And now he's actually quite tolerant of it, like when I started, I had to clean the boxes every day and now he's quite tolerant. I only have to clean the boxes about three times a week because he's got his setup the way he wants it. So I think the argument could be made that that is a burrow like for him because there's a solid wall behind the hay rack.

And so it probably feels like he's in his little, nesty area because he's got his, he's in his box and there's like a solid wall behind him, but I've tried introducing him to things, like I tried to put a really big box at one end of his tunnel so that he could go through the tunnel into a big box, and he was not about that life.

Like he even stopped using the tunnel. So, so it was like, he was like, I don't want to go into this big dark space. And there may be reasons for that, he, he's had quite an adventure in his life. But I, I'm constantly grappling with is this, is the need being met enough by the litter box set up, or is there another way that I can encourage him to have that sort of burrowing behavior that, that rabbits like to do.

[00:17:48] Thea: Well, first, I think you're really onto something by giving him choices and options of a litter box on either side because they're different qualities. And I think you're right about being able to graze and forage next to something solid provides security that promotes these species typical behaviors. Yeah, it promotes security and choice and control. And that's so important for enrichment. There's some other things that you could do, and I think we just experiment, like you could crumble up newspaper and shove it in his tunnel, and he'll have to remove that. It may not even take that long for him, but it still would be really fun, and you'll see him, like, put his upper body, you'll hear it, it'll be so loud, and then what he'll do is he'll dig with his little front legs, and then he'll turn around in the tunnel, and he'll take his little hands, and he'll push it out of the tunnel.

It's really a fun thing to watch. Sometimes I'll put a bunch of newspaper in like a pet carrier or two, and for some reason in there rabbits like to go in there and just dig around. And it's loud, it's fantastic, it's loud, it's obnoxious, and, and it's messy. Like they, but that's. That's life.

[00:18:54] Emily: That is delightful because it's easy, it's, it's free and like, it makes so much sense to give him little newspaper balls to like, dig out of his tunnel. I love that so much. Thank you for that advice. I appreciate that. Okay. So I want to move on to a different type of enrichment. Because your niche is something that I find delightful. Let's be real. Everything about rabbits is delightful, but I love that rabbit speed dating is a thing. So I have a whole series of questions. I have so many questions about this. First question is. What does that look like?

[00:19:30] Thea: Oh, there is so much that I can say about this, and I'm a little bit worried that I'll get like, over excited and start squealing or something like that. Um Um, so there's, there's a lot to go over and I, I want to describe to you exactly what it looks like, but I, maybe we could go over the why of speed dating first or when it comes up.

[00:19:52] Emily: that was actually going to be one of my questions. So yes, we'll just swap around the questions. Why is rabbit speed dating important?

[00:20:00] Thea: We're often in the situation where someone adopts a single rabbit and then later the rabbit needs a friend, or they want to adopt a friend. But rabbits are very picky about who their friends are. Of course, naturally, we all are. And so, you have to go through a process where the rabbit chooses their own friend. And we call it rabbit speed dating because that's adorable. But what it means is, the person brings their rabbit somewhere, like into a shelter, or the rescue that I volunteer with does it in PetSmart. And we introduce them to three rabbits, and we basically see how it goes. We watch their behaviors. We see which one, which pair seems to have the most chemistry. And it's a whole process. I tell people to allow three hours. There's a lot of suspense. There's a lot of uncertainty. The end of the day, a rabbit gets adopted. And then, so that's like half the battle. 

Then once that new rabbit comes home, there's another process for bonding those rabbits, so they're, they're tight. But it's all the same ideas, the same principles as, as rabbit speed dating in terms of what behaviors you're looking for, and want to promote, the ones that you want to prevent. So rabbit speed dating and talking about that is a great way to learn about enrichment and agency and rabbit social behavior.

[00:21:13] Emily: So what are the things that you're looking for both in speed dating and with bonding? Like what are the behaviors that people should be paying attention to to say this interaction is going well, these, these rabbits are clicking, or oh, there might be some, some conflict on the horizon.

[00:21:32] Thea: Some things we like to see are that when rabbits approach each other, they do it with this, they stop and start motions and like with a zigzag, they don't go directly towards the other rabbit. And if they do, that's a little sign of trouble. So, it's more casual approach, stop and start, zigzag, and then retreating.

So, it's approach retreat. And it ends up, It's awkward at first. It ends up being like a partner dance, so they have to learn to do it together. And when you see that really coordinated, and rabbits waiting, and negotiating the space between them effectively, that's when you know you're on to something really good. So, yeah, that's one. 

Maybe we could go over how you set up the space for a speed date. So I think I tend to do this a little bit differently than other people, and a few years ago I read this book called Canine Enrichment for the Real World, and I immediately started implementing some ideas from it. So this is what it looks like. So we attach two puppy pens, and so there's like this huge, it's a large space, and we put down a rug. We make it, like, give them a lot of traction traction and comfort. We put a litter box on each side with loads of hay. We often drape like curtains or sheets around the sides to reduce the simulation of a stimuli that often happen. And then we put a lot of enrichment items in the pen. And the most important one is we need an object in the center that the rabbits can hide behind, and hide from each other, and hide from me because I'm in that pen too. And I found that this is so, it works so nicely, and things have gone so much more smoothly since I started doing this. There's a particular object that my, my preferred one and that I carry with me on my speed dates. It's like this rabbit toy where it looks like a bunch of Lincoln logs that are stuck together, and it's bendable. And it's meant for like guinea pigs and stuff like that. But for rabbits, if you put on its side, it gives a hiding space where it doesn't obscure the visibility of the rabbits. And as they're moving around, you can see, you can watch them use this object to hide from each other, or to slowly peek out. 

And especially, I've noticed some rabbits hide from me. And that added a whole other dimension for me that hadn't occurred to me, that I was indeed influencing the interaction between these rabbits. And perhaps when one seemed very nervous, that it wasn't, it wasn't about the other rabbit, it was about me. Like, I had forgotten that I was a participant. So, this object gives so much information. It's useful. You can improvise with other things. Sometimes people will just use a cardboard box. I used a folding chair before. That was a little, little awkward. 

So you need, I call it the object, I wish I had a better term for this, I'll have to invent something snazzy. So I put the object in the middle, and then I throw pellets, and tasty things all over some low value, and then I have a bunch of higher value stuff in my pocket. And a snuffle mat is good, some toys, a few willow balls. But we want to give a lot of opportunities for them to engage in species typical behaviors, and we want to give them choices. And when we do that, and they're able to engage in those behaviors, there's so many benefits. They can reduce the amount of stress that they're experiencing.

Because speed dating is stressful, and it can be eustress or distress, and we really, we'd like it to be in the eustress direction, but not too intense. Enrichment for speed date is just, I've seen some really wonderful things happen during them and you can watch rabbits learn and make decisions and express themselves. It's really beautiful.

[00:25:02] Emily: You just helped me to understand one of Bundini's behaviors because I have a little twig tunnel for him. 

[00:25:09] Thea: Yeah, that's it. That's the twig tunnel. I think that's it. And it's bendable. 

[00:25:14] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I have, yeah. Okay, 

[00:25:17] Thea: Twig tunnel. That's, that's the word I should be using to describe it because that, it's a twig tunnel.

[00:25:22] Emily: It's a twig tunnel. Okay. We have the same thing. Good. So I, I have that for him. Not as, he has a tunnel that he goes in and he like pops his little head out the holes at the top and stuff, but the twig tunnel is where I scatter. his pellets so that he can, like, try to find his pellets. And I've noticed that he always flips it on its side, and the convex part of it is always facing in the same direction.

And so at first, I thought it was just like, he's knocking the tunnel over as he is getting the pellets. But over time, I've noticed that, like, he's very consistent in like how it's oriented when it's flipped on its side. And as you were talking, I was like, we go down in the basement all the time. We have guests go down into the basement, sometimes we're dragging things through the basement. I wonder if he's flipping it in that direction because the convex side is facing out towards the, the part of the basement that we're like, we, where the most activity is. It's not facing to the corner that's more storage. And, and so as you were talking, I was like, I bet he's using it to like hide behind to watch us when we're like up to human shenanigans in the basement. That just blew my mind.

[00:26:40] Thea: Yeah, it, I see rabbits use it in different ways each time I use it too and like, recently I was doing helping with bonding in someone's home and it had gone, there were, there had been some fighting and this session was going way better, partly because we had this twig tunnel object in the middle. And one rabbit laid down first. That was very exciting. We were like, this is amazing. They're laying down and their, their butt was sticking out from one end. And then the next time they laid down, their head was sticking out like they were just watching. They were like, I'm okay laying down as long as I'm partially covered. I just keep an eye on you. And then slowly they would like be more and more visible. I think, but they can, and they were on either side of it relaxing and then they'd get up and get a little bit of a better view, relax again. Like it was, it was really beautiful to see.

[00:27:27] Emily: It's so cute that they get to feel comfortable around each other by just like peeking at each other.

[00:27:32] Thea: I think that's a lot of it. And it's so rabbit y because it's like approach and retreat. There's a little peek and then run away. And like, testing each other to, can I go a little further? No, that's not okay. Okay, bye. I'll go over here. And I'll, I'll make it even more obvious that I'm running away. Just, just to show you that I'm, I'm okay. I'm not a threat. It's, it's so much fun watching these dates.

[00:27:51] Emily: That sounds so delightful. And also I appreciate you explaining like rabbit social behavior, and how they interact with each other because I really don't have a lot of experience with that. The clients that I had who had rabbits, I was typically working with one rabbit who was having the issue. If I, when I was a pet sitter, a lot of my rabbit clients, they just had one rabbit, so, or, two rabbits that were, that I've always known them as being a bonded pair.

So, I didn't get to, I wasn't there when they were meeting each other. So I, even though I have experience with rabbits, I really don't have experience with rabbit social behavior. So I really appreciate you describing that and, and, and sharing with us what that looks like, because it is, it's delightful to hear. So, tell me about, you've already spoken to this a little bit, but I bet you have more to say about why you are such an advocate for doing these rabbit speed dates.

[00:28:49] Thea: So, one of the primary messages that we always tell adopters is that we need to let the rabbit choose their partner. And when we do that, the bonding is much easier. Because bonding is tough. When you get the rabbits home, you have to do these very short dates. And it, it's stressful for the human. And there's sometimes setbacks. It's like half a step ahead, full step back sometimes. It's, it's stressful. And sometimes it can be very drawn out. So, we want to, we want to make it easy and as low stress as possible for people. And speed dating helps with that. But the, the real reason is, it's not just so it makes the process easier, it's because it's really the only opportunity we have to watch rabbits using choice and control, doing enrichment activities, like in action, in person, there are no, they don't really have good informational resources about rabbit behavior. 

So, each of these speed dates becomes a lesson for everyone involved, and there are usually a lot of people there. Recently we've been setting up chairs, so like everyone can watch. It's, It's, it's really entertaining and becomes a bit of a social event. We should probably start serving food or something like that. But and then we learn like how each rabbit as individuals express themselves. Because there are differences between individuals and we see some behaviors more with some and some with others. And so it's a great learning opportunity and like a community activity that draws people together.

[00:30:12] Emily: I love that. Yeah. You could have rabbit social hour where the humans have snacks and drinks and the rabbits get to have speed dating.

[00:30:19] Thea: And it's also, there's a lot of suspense involved in rabbit speed dating because we do a brief first round with all the three rabbits. And everyone's speculating, like, before we start, like, who's going to win? Who's going to get adopted? We don't know, and then with each successive date, we have to, like, he's like paused. I'm like, okay, so what do you think now? Like, we saw this and this and this. That was, that one day, that third date got a little bit, like, amped up. Like, they seemed a little bit tense and a little too excited. Like, maybe that's not a great match. Or, on the second date, one of the rabbits just kept freezing, maybe that's not a great match. And then I might point out, one of us might point out, like, oh, but the freezing reduced. And, and, the duration throughout the date. So, oh, actually, maybe that is a good thing then because it's going in the right direction. So, it's a lot of suspense. 

And then we do another round with, it's even longer, and it's gets very like people are like, Oh, are they going to kiss? Are they going to kiss or just, it's very dramatic, a lot of suspense. And after each round, again, there's discussion like, who's going to, who's going to get adopted. And everyone has their favorite rabbit that they're rooting for to get adopted. And so, it's very exciting. It's a lot of drama. It really should be a reality TV series. And we often joke around, it's like The Bachelor. Which I've actually never seen, but it sounds like the right I don't think I need to see it now, after doing all the speed dates.

[00:31:40] Emily: I'm just saying Animal Planet producers, you've got a new show idea. You've got a new show idea. Rabbit speed dating. It's got everything. Suspense, romance, gambling.

[00:31:52] Thea: it's a little bit sexy, but not R rated. It's got the awkward, the awkwardness of human dating. And it's just, like, rabbits embarrassing themselves and just being all weird.

[00:32:03] Emily: There are no histrionic tears from the rabbits who don't like, bond, right? Who don't get the rose. 

[00:32:09] Thea: Didn't occur to me. 

[00:32:09] Emily: Um, I love that so much. I can't wait for the rabbit bachelor on Animal Planet. Okay, so, I'm curious now because, with dogs, you dogs have different levels of sociability as do humans, do rabbits have different level of sociability? Are there rabbit selective rabbits? Just like how there are dog selective dogs, are there rabbit selective rabbits, or like there are dog solo dogs? Are there rabbit solo rabbits? Are there, are there some kiddos who are just like, I don't, I don't need to live, and a big warren. warren? Is that what they're called? Yes. Okay. Like I don't need to live in a big warren. I'm good. I'm good by myself. Like, is that a thing?

[00:32:49] Thea: That's a good question. And a question we get a lot. Rabbits are differently social, each of them. And sometimes, well, quite often people will ask me, are there some rabbits that just cannot be bonded with other rabbits? And usually that looks like a rabbit who bites, and boxes, and lunges at every rabbit they meet, and I sometimes have people. So people ask if these rabbits that we see these behaviors from can be bonded, like maybe they're just like they hate other rabbits and that's just how they are inherently. And I'd like to reframe that question as what are these rabbits needs and are they being met? I don't think this is an inherent quality of rabbits not being social and I'm putting that in quotes. And in my opinion, and from my experience, and what I've seen the rabbits who we might describe as Unsocial, or hating other rabbits have unmet needs in terms of medical needs, especially in terms of pain. So, they need to go to the vet and get, a full exam. I really think that pain plays much more of a role in social interactions than you realize. Especially when, they don't go as well or don't go as planned. 

The other need that's, I think, often unmet for rabbits, especially these particular rabbits, is that they don't feel secure. So, there are many things we can do to address this, things like giving more traction with flooring really helps, giving multiple hiding places, but especially allowing the rabbits to escape when they want to, allowing them to increase the distance between certain stimuli that are scary, be it another rabbit, a human, anything that household noises, things like that. 

And then I also think along the same lines, there are some rabbits that need a partner more than others, and those are the rabbits we need to focus on. And those are rabbits that may not be comfortable around humans, that may not approach them on their own. Rabbits that have needs like have runny eyes, or arthritis, and can't clean out their own ears, they need a rabbit to do those things for them. And they just may be fearful of a lot of things, and we find that when that rabbit has a partner, that they're less fearful. And that they rest better. And they're not always on watch to see what's going to happen. And they actually, when they're sleeping, they like stretch out longer. Like you can see the changes that happen. And it's really wonderful for certain rabbits.

[00:35:00] Emily: All right. So my next question is purely selfish because you and I have talked about this before, but now that I'm interviewing you, and we're having a deeper conversation about this, I want to revisit this topic with you. Because as you know, but our listeners don't, Bundini has had a tumultuous history, as I imagine many rabbits do, but he's been through countless homes.

I, I, I don't know how many homes he's been through in the four years of his life. I know that with, between when I, when I ended up with him the first time, and when I ended up with him most recently he had three and a half foster homes, and, and right now, his life is the best it has ever been, and it's still not as good as I wish it could be, because he can't be upstairs with the dogs.

I have, Brie was feral, she subsisted off of, rabbits and birds when she was a feral dog. Even though I am doing work with her to help her be relaxed around him, I am never going to expect them to share space. That just would not be safe. So he lives in our basement, he has a really big setup, he seems pretty comfortable and happy in that.

He has started doing binkies again, which I've, I'm seeing for the first time since Salt Lake when, when I ended up with him the first time which tells me that he's really, happy. That I, when I come downstairs, he's happy to see me, which, which makes me happy. So he's, he's probably in the best situation he's ever been in.

And also, I, I often wonder if he would be a good candidate for a rabbit buddy, even though he's never lived with another rabbit in his life, to my knowledge. And he's four years old, so he's like middle aged. I wonder what that would look like, because I don't have space to keep two rabbits separated.

And so, I can't do a gradual introduction. I just don't, I don't know. No, no, no. Let me, let me start over because that is a logical fallacy. Okay, so I do not currently know with my knowledge and skill sets how I would introduce a new rabbit into his space, and give them a kind of gradual bonding opportunity where they could gradually move in together because I don't have a place for that other rabbit to live while we're doing that process.

So, I am sure I am not the only person who has been through this. I have no doubt in my mind that there are going to be people who listen to this who have a single rabbit who are like, yeah, same. So it's a selfish question, but also it's for the benefit of everybody else who experiences this. What is your recommendation for people like me who are in a situation like this with a bun like Bundini?

[00:37:41] Thea: So first, it's not a selfish question at all. Because bringing another rabbit into the household has a big impact, and it can be, it can impose in your space and it's going to be a lot of time. And I don't want to underestimate the importance of you staying sane and staying well while you have these pets, like you don't need to compromise your own wellbeing for your rabbit. So, you can do both at the same time. 

What you're describing is, is, the problems with space is really, really common. It's really common, especially like in New York City because people have studio apartments and it's always like, Oh, how do we do it, do this? So you have to get really creative with your space. One thing you could do, well, I always recommend when you, after you bring the rabbit home, that you house them side by side. And so, you can do two pens side by side, and then you'll need to do bonding sessions in another space. 

So, what this may involve for you is for your bonding sessions, really mixing up the space a lot. You may have to rearrange things, rearrange people's furniture, their homes. Like, let's move the couch over there. And like, you really, it gets pretty wild, but it could mean like putting down a separate rug for bonding, and putting up a visual blocker between, both the enclosures and the bonding area. So, you have to get creative. Sometimes people who live in apartment buildings, this is an example late at night, we'll do rabbit bondings in the hallways. Or take the rabbits down to like the group laundry room. It gets, it gets, you get really creative. Or take the rabbits to a friend's house and either, keeping them there, so it's really about creativity and each situation is different, and everyone has certain constraints, so you have to just be very creative, and there are always constraints.

[00:39:23] Emily: So, what I'm hearing is that for me to do this, what it would take for me is continue my work helping Bundini feel safe leaving his enclosure because he's not there yet. We're making progress, but he's not ready to leave his enclosure yet. I would need the time to find a way to reorganize my basement so that I could create, like, create an X Pen Annex onto the current X Pen enclosure.

And I would need to set aside time on a regular basis to not just do the initial speed dating, but have dedicated regular bonding sessions. Is that correct? That's good information because I don't have those resources right now, but I can budget for those resources, time and money, budgeting for those resources in the future and, and readdress this when I'm actually ready, when I'm prepared to do it in a way that would support everybody involved.

Me, my partner, our other pets, Bundini, the new Bun. So thank you for that. Thank you for helping me prepare for that, that future. Are there some situations where people have felt rabbits can't be bonded because it's been attempted, and the attempts have failed? And it wasn't really that the rabbit couldn't be bonded, but the, the way that it was attempted was, was setting the bunnies up to fail. So, I guess what I'm asking is, are there common mistakes in how people attempt to introduce rabbits to each other?

[00:40:50] Thea: That's a great question, and people, of course, make mistakes as they do, or they don't know enough when they start, and when they know better, they do better. So there are a few mistakes that people make. The biggest one is during a bonding session is letting the rabbits be too close for too long. And that sounds simple, but we see this problem in all sorts of situations. They're just together for too long. It's very much like when you're working with reactive dogs with leash greetings, and the dogs are together for a second or two long, and then it's like all of a sudden, out of nowhere, it looks good, and then they're like, barking and growling, and it, it looks like it came out of nowhere, but it didn't. There are some signs of escalation beforehand, and you want to prevent those by just setting them for success, letting them keep distance. Sometimes, quite often, I, I work with a shoe, and I, like, gently glide the shoe in between the rabbits so they're not too close for too long.

And I, increase by like half a second the times that they're close together, or if they approach each other head on, I'll glide a rabbit around so they're side to side or things like that. We're, we're always playing with thresholds. We don't know what the thresholds are, we're, we'll just boil over and be too exciting or too good. So, we're, we're, I work with a large margin of error. Because things happen, do happen fast, rabbits move really fast. So that's the biggest mistake. Too close for too long.

One, another example that happened sometimes, is that rabbits will start kissing. And by that I mean licking each other. Of course, like, this is amazing. Like we love seeing kissing. And then we're like, oh my god, it's done. The process is done. Only now, that's totally natural. And they'll be kissing and then all of a sudden, a fight will break out. It's just like with the dogs, introducing dogs, dogs on a leash. And so, you, it gets very frustrating to people because it seems like a giant step forward and then a fight. And I feel for people when this happens. So even when rabbits start kissing, I let it happen for just a second or two and then glide them apart. 

I would say the other big issue that happens, and it's really trucky, tricky, is you have to know body language very well. And as I said, there aren't, there really aren't very many good science based resources on rabbit body language. And so one of the things you have to look for is, is the rabbit, when they look calm and relaxed, if they are, or if they're frozen. And that's one reason why I love enrichment, because it's like, when a rabbit is chewing or foraging or chinning or doing all these behaviors, you know they're not shut down, you know that there's, there's not behavior suppression because they're doing behavior. And sometimes we'll all see a rabbit will freeze, because rabbits freeze naturally. Like, they hear a noise, they're like, Oh, what's that? And they stretch up real tall. This is a different sort of position. But what I'll do is, I've seen rabbits, they look frozen, and it goes on for too long. And I'll take the other rabbit and move them farther away. And then, the frozen rabbit will start moving around and doing their thing. It's just, you just need more distance. And so, what can happen sometimes is someone sees a rabbit not moving, and they're like, oh that's great, they're okay with everything going on, and they're not. They're really not okay. And they're like, unable to do anything. They're just like, they're stuck. So there's a lot of subtlety in rabbit body language and it takes a lot of practice and, and a lot of getting video of interactions, and then reviewing them in slow motion, and things like that. You can never have enough. I, each time I do a bonding session or a sweet date and re watch the video, I learn more. 

[00:44:07] Emily: I'm just going to say, please bring a rabbit video to a behavior observation practice session because I would love to practice rabbit body language better. But I see so many parallels between how you're describing your setup with speed dating and how important it is to have enrichment as a process for these interactions.

And how important it is to have a dog park that isn't just a barren space, because it's the same thing. If you put a bunch of dogs in a barren enclosure where the only thing they have to do is focus on each other, that focus may not always be awesome focus. But if you have an enrichment yard where the dogs have lots of things to do, and there's not that social pressure to engage with each other because they can just interact with the environment in parallel to each other, that really alleviates a lot of that social pressure. And we just see less conflict because the dogs don't feel like the only thing to do in that space is like approach each other, right. 

And so it just seems to me that that's a very common theme is like people who aren't yet skilled at body language, or, are still learning body language, may not be able to tell all of the nuanced like signals that are happening, but they can tell if an animal is just flattened on the ground or engaging in enrichment, whether we're talking about dogs, or rabbits, or horses, or cats, or whoever that is a tool that people can use even before they're really skilled at body language.

And also, like you said, you are never perfectly skilled at body language. You just never are, because like, even now in our behavior observation practice sessions, I have been wrong at least three times that I can remember. And I actually like being wrong because it shows people that like, you will never get to a point in your career or your life where you just have this infallible interpretation of non human communication. Like, that's not a thing. That any of us ever achieve. And so, like developing that intellectual humility as a skill that is necessary to become skilled at reading body language is to me a really important component of that.

So, even when you are good at it. You still aren't ever going to be perfect at it and being aware of that and being aware of how to set up your environment to protect the rabbits from our own fallibility is so important. Or the rabbits, or dogs, or whatever species, right? So, so, yeah, everything that you're saying is just so beautiful and it's, and it's so applicable to so many different species.

[00:46:48] Thea: It's interesting that you mentioned dog parks and rabbit bonding because one one important, I would call it an event in my history is I went to a dog training school for like a talk about dog park design, and it really informed my, it made my head explode. So they were describing how the environment that you create influences behavior. And I was like, whoa! And they said, barren dog parks, it, it's rough. And they describe things that need, that work well at dog parks, and tend to promote affiliative behavior, like, certain substrates, and having different levels. So, a dogs can get distance from each other by going up, and things to hide behind, and all sorts of enrichment in the dog park. And I was like, whoa, whoa, hold on. I can use this. So I started experimenting with that and that was, it was a big step. Like, antecedent arrangement is a really, really big deal. Like, it's really about setting a rabbit or dog up for success by creating an environment. And you could really do cool stuff. In fact, you mentioned not having that much space like spatial constraints are one thing that you may encounter in the future if you decide to bond Bundini, and one of the things when you don't have a huge space for the bonding area is to actually make the bonding area more complex.

So make areas where a rabbit can perch, and different hiding places like the twig tunnel, on different forging areas, and just making it more complex, more choices, and then you can get away with making it a little bit smaller. Because they really, we really have to have space to get away from each other, and there are ways to do that without there actually being more space. Like, get away from each other vertically, for example.

[00:48:36] Emily: You know what's so funny about this? Here's what I love about hosting this podcast. This happens to me so many times I'll be like, how do you do this thing? And people are like, exactly the way that you talk about doing the thing, but just in this different context. So I'm like, Oh, right. And like, that literally just happened to me. Cause I was like, like dog parks and you're like, yeah, so like dog parks, but in your bunny enclosure. And I'm like, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Like

[00:49:01] Thea: Well, that's the great thing about talking about behavior and having like a behavior community is you get so many ideas, and you creative solutions, and things like group behavior analysis sessions. Things you didn't see before and it, it, it makes the learning experience better. It opens up whole new possibilities. So, it's really important, I think, for all of us. 

[00:49:22] Emily: And it helps with generalization because, you can't have an objectivity about your own pets or your own circumstance, your own family, your own environment. And so, sometimes you need people to tell you what you tell other people all the time because you don't have objectivity in that situation.

And so, I needed you to tell me, I know you know this because you literally just said it about dog parks, but also do that to your bunny enclosure. And because I would not have made that connection. Without you telling me, so yeah, we, you can't be your own behavior consultant, even if you know the things, because knowing the things, and knowing how to apply them to your own situation where you lack objectivity and you, there's a lot at stake for you, those are two very different things, right?

[00:50:07] Thea: And that's also another thing I love about speed dates, because you're, you're watching, people get to watch other people's rabbits. Like, it's, there's much less of an emotional stake in it. It's just, when, when people bring their rabbit home, and they have trouble with bonding, they're often worried they're going to have to return one of the rabbits.

And that's so, that is so stressful. And even that possibility, and thinking that is enough to just skew everything, so as much experience as you can get with other rabbits really builds a lot of skill base there.

[00:50:39] Emily: Yeah. That kind of brings me to the next thing I wanted to talk to you about, because this situation that I had with Bundini was eyeopening for me. And I don't know if it's the same everywhere in our country, or if it's just the specific kind of reality of the Pacific Northwest, but I've been in sheltering since 1990, and I have never had as hard of a time placing an animal as I did with Bundini, I could not believe how frigging hard it was to find placement for Bundini. And I, we ended up placing them with just people that we knew because there were no resources available to us, I might as well have been trying to find a home for a blue whale. Like, it was shocking to me.

I, it was a wake up call to me because if you have a dog, or a cat, or a parrot, or a horse, and you put out, the alarms on social media or whatever. And there's, there's some rescue group, there's some individual, there's some shelter that's like, yeah, we can, we can take them. We'll, we'll do something, right?

In most places, in most places, I, I'm aware that I'm speaking in a very broad and general way. And there are pockets of our country where this is not true. But in general, there, there's, there are resources to be had. When Bundini's foster home could no longer keep him for super valid reasons. It was not, it was nothing against them, but we were not ready yet to take him because one of the reasons I think that bunnies are in this predicament is because I learned the hard way that most property managers, at least in the Pacific Northwest, I don't know if this is true everywhere, but they don't allow what they call verminous pets, which includes rabbits. I am aware of the damage that rabbits, and rats, and mice can do to households and I don't think property managers are aware of the damage that other species can do too, and I don't want to say that on this recording because I don't want to further restrict resources and options for people who have pets. That's the opposite of my intention but it just doesn't seem it, it doesn't seem fair, to single out these species as being particularly destructive, or dangerous, when every animal comes with a risk because all living beings have needs, and we all come with risks. Humans, let's be real, are the biggest risk to rental properties.

So, so like, I, I get, I understand. And also I, deeply disagree with that policy, and, and that is why we had to, the whole story of how we ended up with Bundini in the first place is it's his own saga, but the, but we couldn't even find a place to live because we had Bundini, and that's why we had to put him in foster care in the first place.

And then when that foster home could no longer keep him for valid reasons, we still were renting and we still couldn't take him. And every single shelter and rescue group I contacted was either like, they didn't respond, or they just said, take a hike, or they said, we'll take them, but we'll euthanize him. Or they said, sure, we've got a wait list of 72 rabbits, we're happy for you to be number 73. I had no idea the predicament that rabbits are in. I had some idea, I had an inkling, but experiencing it firsthand was eye opening for me. 

Again, I can understand like a few of the reasons why rabbits are in these dire straits. And I do see things where I'm, I'm not, I don't know enough about the topic and I want to be very aware of my own auto epistemic logical fallacy, where I'm like, I don't know that there's a solution, therefore I think there isn't one, right, I, I want to be aware of that. But I see rescue groups saying we won't place rabbits in homes with dogs cause there's a risk, and my thought is like. Yeah, and if they don't get placed in home at all, there's a high risk of them dying because there's no place for them to go, is that really the best strategy, y'all? Like, and I don't know, maybe it is. I don't, again, I don't know enough to know, but I just find all of these barriers for rabbits being placed in the homes when really my experience is they're some of the easiest pets to take care of. I need to know your perspective because you have so much more depth of knowledge on this. I guess my question is why, why, why are rabbits in this situation to begin with? And what can we do about it? 

[00:55:05] Thea: So, I think you're right that there are very few resources for rabbits. There are a ton of rabbit rescues, but they're very small, and scattered around, and they're huge parts of the country where I really, I think there are very few rabbit rescues. I think it's safe to say that most shelters don't accept rabbits, some municipal shelters do. There's only, only the New York City Animal Care Centers accept rabbits. That's the only shelter in New York City that accepts rabbits. And you'd think a big city with a lot more resources than places would have more shelters that do this. But the truth is we have a few very small rescues in New York that's taking care of all the rabbits, and pulling from the shelter and helping with that. So that's one issue, lack of resources. 

The problem, one other problem is lack of veterinary resources. Rabbits need exotic vets, and it's a pretty specialized expertise and it's really hard to find a vet, who can do rabbits. As we say, some of them are able to spay neuter. If you are rabbit with a digestive problem, or especially in an emergency room, there may not be a place to get your rabbit, and it's really challenging. For those two things. 

I also do think that rabbit rescues have the same. challenges or problems that, like, dog rescues have with being overly restrictive with their adoptive homes. Often, fortunately, from what I've seen, rabbit rescues are able to provide a lot of post adoption support, which is what most people need. Like, but I think your dog example is a really good one. Because I think that there really are, I've seen some very good dog and rabbit households, but it takes a lot of planning. It often takes a really good professional trainer, and it can be done, but it really depends on, we need to make sure that the adopter has. accurate expectations of what it's like to live with a dog and a rabbit together. And since we don't really have images of this, we have weird TikTok images of dog and rabbits playing, and it's, I look at them and it's not play, like it's, it's not good. It's really terrifying. But we really, really need more resources on how dogs and rabbits can live together. But I agree with you. I think that it's a very similar issue, it's overly restrictive. I am going to partially correct you about rabbits being a pet that are less work than others. 

[00:57:21] Emily: I didn't say they were less work. I said they were, I said they were one of the easiest pets to care for. But to be clear, I don't mean that they're not labor intensive. What I meant by that is they don't have a lot of the same behaviors that most pet parents find to be really challenging, right? 

[00:57:39] Thea: Oh, I like how you rephrase that a lot. They really don't, and also, unlike cats and dogs can potentially really hurt someone, and be a real liability. And I, I, rabbits can bite and they can do some damage, but it's not as scary as a cat, or a dog, or a parrot. And, to their detriment, like I wish cat rabbits could speak up more, and, and really say no in the way that cats and, and dogs can. But there's just, there's a lot less risk. 

[00:58:07] Emily: I want to play a game with you. Because I, I think we have this opportunity to give our elevator pitch for why more people should adopt rabbits and what we love about living with rabbits. And we'll just like, I'll say a thing, you say a thing, I'll say a thing, you say a thing, until we run out of things to say. You wanna play that game with me? 

[00:58:26] Thea: I love it. Love it. 

[00:58:27] Emily: Alright, alright, you go first. 

[00:58:29] Thea: Okay. Their shit doesn't stink.

[00:58:31] Emily: I will add to yours, not only does their shit not stink, but you can just pick it up in your fingers and throw it into, throw it outside in the yard. I, I use it as fertilizer in my plants, I think you do too, right? So yeah, like, all right, so perfect poop, perfect poop is our first round for both of us. All right. Round two. What's the next thing for you?

[00:58:52] Thea: they're quiet. Yes, they're noisy when they chew on cardboard, but there's no barking. They're quiet. 

[00:58:58] Emily: Yes. They are. They are quiet. I love that. Okay. Once again, I'm going to tag, I'm going to tag team off of yours and say, when they do make noises, their noises are adorable. And that is, that is one of the many reasons that rabbits are adorable is because they make cute. My, one of my favorite noises is just listening to and watching Bundini eat fresh produce.

[00:59:20] Thea: I think there should be, on sound machines, there should be one setting for listening to a rabbit eat hay. So, my rabbit's litter box actually happens to be right next to my bed, and I love the sound of rabbits chewing. And when you hear them chewing, you know they're healthy, too. It's like, oh, this is great. It's enrichment, you know their digestion is working well. It is so soothing.

[00:59:42] Emily: But like, there's a different sound when they're eating carrots, versus when they're eating raspberries, versus when there's they're eating, and I love how like strong their preferences are. Like Bundini is a cilantro man, he is a cilantro man. If I try to give him parsley, he's like well, I guess I can eat it, but this is not cilantro. Like, I love that so much, but also cilantro sounds different than carrots, or lettuce, or or raspberries.

[01:00:07] Thea: it really does. Oh, and also the sound of sipping water from a bowl. Ah, love it. Yeah,

[01:00:13] Emily: Is the sound of sipping water your next reason to love living with bunnies, or... 

[01:00:18] Thea: I was just thinking about how enriching it is for humans to live with rabbits in terms of being able to relax, and watch them, and interact with them in a way that's calming. You can read a book next to a rabbit, and really just be happy with them sitting next to you. That's a great honor. If they come and like sit next to you, just want to be close to you. That's a huge honor. And it's, it's very nice, quiet interaction that I love. I like that sometimes in people too. 

[01:00:46] Emily: Chuck and I, my parent, my partner and I, we do a lot of just like parallel hanging out. All right. My, my route, my, my next one is binkies, are the cutest things in the world. And also it makes me feel so good when I do something. It's like the best click treat in the world. When you do something and the rabbits response to that as binkies, it's like, yes, I win. I did it. I succeeded.

[01:01:10] Thea: I, it's especially reinforcing because I feel like it's especially not because it's a prey animal. Like they're not going to do that if they're scared of you. It's like, you're like, I, I'm a special human. I'm extra special. Yeah, I love, I love that. I love seeing flops. I love watching their behaviors. Okay. Okay. There's another big reason. Rabbits are adorable. They're adorable. They're really, really cute. And that, that's a big deal. I'm not minimizing, their abilities or the depth of their personalities. But they're really, really cute.

[01:01:43] Emily: My next reason is that they're eco friendly because they eat like hay, and veggies, and like, that's pretty much it. And so they're, they're just easy. And like, you can compost all of their waste, they're just like easy on the environment.

[01:01:58] Thea: They're vegans. So, if you're a vegan, you can eat some of the same stuff. 

[01:02:01] Emily: I'm not a vegan, but I eat a ton of produce and, and like, and I have birds, and they eat a ton of produce. And so we just all have this like shared, shared, shared food. But like, and oh, by the way, again, as I've said in previous episodes, nutrition, like behavior is a study of one, this is not trying to force people to be vegan, 80 percent of people don't have the genetic makeup to do that well. This is not to guilt anybody into being vegan, diets are an incredibly complex topic. And also us, the, the, the people like living our lives on the ground are also not the biggest reasons that our environment is suffering. So I, I'm not trying to, this is not about like eco guilt, but it is nice.

[01:02:46] Thea: It is nice. it's a perk. 

[01:02:48] Emily: It's a perk to have a pet who's just really eco friendly. And it's like, I eat like hay and veggies, and you can compost all my, all my. It's awesome. All right. What's your next one?

[01:02:59] Thea: Watching two rabbits make out.

[01:03:02] Emily: Rabbit kissing.

[01:03:03] Thea: It's really cute. Or just snuggling, snuggling up. 

[01:03:05] Emily: I'm going to piggyback off yours again, because I'm not going to lie when I have a little smearable, I get this these little, what I use for bunnies lickable training treats are these, they're called like Noka smoothies that are in these pouches. And I put a little bit on my fingertip, and he comes and licks it off my fingertip, and it's cute to watch but also the feeling of little, little bunny tongue on my fingertip. It's delightful.

[01:03:32] Thea: I'm gonna take that, Emily. I, I hadn't thought, I thought about, I'm not quite expert. I, I've given rabbits treats with syringes, and I do, I have purchased some little tubes of food. I have not really thought about smearing some on my hand, why haven't I? That's, that's, that's brilliant.

[01:03:53] Emily: I can send you the link to the, the smoothies that I buy but I, I use them for, I taught, it's really important to me that all of my animals are syringe trained so that if they need medication, they'll, they'll happily take it from the syringe, so my birds love their syringes. I needed Bundini to love his too. So, so I, I do use it for syringe training, but right now what I'm using it for him is getting him reused to being brushed. Because here's the thing, I know the people who fostered him, I know the ones who did brush him know well enough to brush him in a way that's appetitive to him, give him choice and control, the rest of the foster homes were not brushing him, but there's something about the disruption of his homes that has made him really, really, really hands off. He does not like the feeling of the brush on his body. So, I'm working to give him control over the brush, and I'm using the lickable for him to be able to control it. So, that's how I'm using the lickable, but I but, like, I'm not gonna lie, like, half the reason I do it is because I just really love the feeling of his little bunny tongue.

[01:04:57] Thea: I have to say, I just, I love hearing someone talking about giving a rabbit the choice to be brushed. Is, I love it. Also, that you figured out a process and activity to do that with him. Between mutually reinforcing is so beautiful. That is, that is amazing. I love that. I love that so much.

[01:05:22] Emily: it's great because the first time around when we had him, he was, he'd gotten really into it and he'd put his little paws on my thigh, and he would just like, like, wait, he'd watch the brush and wait for it, and then he'd start like eating his snacks, cause he knew that the brush meant the snacks were going to happen.

Cause at the time it wasn't, he didn't have a really strong aversion, so just basic counter conditioning was all that he really needed to feel good about it. And now I'm, I'm really having to give him choice and control. And again, no shade against the people who fostered, I know they didn't do this to him. I know that this is just a function of how disruptive his life has been. But yeah, so yeah, that was a little bit of a tangent, but bunny tongue was, was my next one. What's your next one?

[01:06:00] Thea: Oh boy. So we did the making out. I just love spending time with rabbits and we've already discussed that, but they've got this really nice vibe. Okay, here it is. So rabbits they're crepuscular. I'm, I'm nocturnal. I don't, I think this makes mistake to say they're just crepuscular, but they tend to fit in well with, they have human standard working hours, so they're really active in the morning, they sleep all day, and then when you get home for dinner, they're really active. It's just, it's a lifestyle, and a chronotype that is very complementary with humans. I love, I also like them because I'm, I'm a night owl. So, I'm up late at night, and rabbits are up with me. Like they, we do our training at like, honestly, like two in the morning. Those are our best training sessions. We're like in the living room.

[01:06:51] Emily: I never thought of that. I need to try that with Bundini. Oh my gosh. Thank you, Thea.

[01:06:57] Thea: It's like late night parties.

[01:06:59] Emily: All right. I'm going to start, I'm going to try and see if he's into late night parties. Okay. All right. All right. That's yeah, that's an idea for sure. Okay. My next one is. I love it when he sticks his little head out of his tunnel and looks around like does a little periscope, right? It's the cutest. It's the cutest. The periscoping. Delightful. You haven't lived until you've watched your bunny periscope.

[01:07:22] Thea: It's interesting how not having rabbits in a cage makes them better pets. Like they're really entertaining. They do such cool stuff. And you'd never know. Without, letting them out a little bit, giving them some enrichment.

[01:07:35] Emily: One more round. What's your next one?

[01:07:36] Thea: I just think that the most meaningful thing about having rabbits for me, and I wouldn't, I, it's a perk maybe, but just having an animal developing the relationship, and the trust where they will come lay down close to you, even though they're a prey animal, especially if you really have to work for that relationship is just, it's really, really special. And although I love working with dogs, and cats, when rabbits do that, it's like, it's extra. Like, there's something very, very special about that.

[01:08:10] Emily: I have to say, I love nose work. I love watching dogs do nose work, it brings me so much joy, and there is something next level about bunnies doing nose work because when I spread all of Bundini's little treats around his enclosure, the way he kind of like gets up on his hind legs and sticks his little nose in the air and does this little like nose movement.

And then he like hops around and like finds everything. It is. It just melts my heart. It's the cutest thing of my whole life. Bunny nose work is the best nose work. And I know I'm saying this on a podcast that is primarily focused towards dogs. I know people are going to have feelings about that. and I deeply apologize to everybody and I do love dog nose work and it is delightful, and also I died the first time that Bundy needed nose work. I died. I was deceased. It was the, the cutest thing of my entire life and a cute explosion happened and then I was dead. I, I can't describe it. Bunny nose work. 

[01:09:10] Thea: But so rabbits, okay, I can't stop now. I can't. 

[01:09:13] Emily: All right. That's okay. You can have a bonus round. 

[01:09:15] Thea: Okay, so they really open up a whole other perspective on the world. It's probably, you know, a lot of it has to do with their position on the food chain, but you see the world in very different eyes.

You notice sounds that you've never noticed before. All sorts of things in the environment you notice, you see them reacting to. It's, you, you start to notice, like, if you have a friend come over and they approach the rabbit in a certain way, you're like, oh, oh, I see, I see it now, like, and it's, it's, it's so special. They really open a whole new perspective.

[01:09:46] Emily: Right, so that's our Thea and Emily's elevator pitch for adopting bunnies or at least fostering them if adoption is not realistic for you. Fostering bunnies would still make a huge impact on bunnies because there are, like Thea said, rabbit rescues are overflowing and they have so many bunnies who need homes.

So that's our elevator pitch for why you should consider adopting or fostering bunnies. Thank you for playing that game with me, Thea. I I quite enjoyed that. All right, at the end of every interview, I ask everybody the same set of questions. The first being, what are our observable goals, and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[01:10:24] Thea: I would say there are a few, one of them is if you really want to learn more about rabbit behavior is to volunteer at a shelter, because you may get to be in a room full of rabbits, you'll see a huge variety of personalities, temperaments, sizes, shapes, ear types. And you'll develop so much experience and you can videotape your interactions and watch them. That's really the best way to learn about them, seek out people's rabbits, watch them interact with them. The shelters are just seriously like stepping into a room with 30 rabbits. 

[01:10:57] Emily: Heaven. It's heaven. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. What is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession or enrichment, your choice or any combination thereof, I should say too.

[01:11:06] Thea: Okay, so one thing that I wish people knew and talked about in this field, and it's something we really, we touched on a few times in our conversation, but I really want people to talk about what rabbit well being looks like, what a healthy rabbit looks like behaviorally, physically, and emotionally, what that looks like. I think that we can really draw that out and look at what that looks like at different stages in their life, as juvenile rabbits, as adults, and especially, especially senior rabbits because some of those behaviors, are a little more subtle. I think senior rabbits are just as active as middle aged rabbits. They just look a little different while doing stuff and need some accommodations. 

[01:11:44] Emily: I agree with you. And also I'm going to retroactively add one more postscript reason to adopt rabbits because I said earlier that rabbits were labor intensive and I need to, I need to refine that statement a little bit. What I meant is, yeah, all living beings require care, which requires labor from us. I don't think rabbits require more care than, than any other pet.

And so, my postscript with a bullet, why rabbits make great pets is because their litter does not stink nearly as much as kitty litter. And it, it smells even better and, and also it's easier to clean and like I said at the beginning, you can compost it. So, their litter boxes are easier. I love cats! The, my least favorite thing about cats is the cat litter though, and bunny litter is a breeze.

[01:12:38] Thea: it's, it really is. It, it, yeah, yeah.

[01:12:41] Emily: I just had to say that. I was like, wait, I don't want people to think that it's like a lot of work to have a bunny. It's, all pets require work and bunnies are not worse or better.

[01:12:51] Thea: I think it's a different type of work too, different flavor of work. Just every animal has a different, every individual animal, as well as every species, has a certain amount of labor that changes over time.

[01:13:02] Emily: I just needed to refine that because I was like, man, I'm going to feel so sad if this episode goes out with me saying like rabbits are labor intensive because that, like, you record something, or you write something, and you publish it and then you're like, Oh, I wish I could go back and change that. So I'm just doing it now. All right. Moving back to our questions, what is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field? 

[01:13:21] Thea: So I really, really want Lili Chin to write a book about rabbit behavior. I really, really want it. I hope that's not inappropriate for me to say and I don't want to put any pressure on her, but I want to put a little bit of pressure on her. And I don't, I don't know Lili I'd love to. But, wow. Like the changes that she has made with people understanding dog behavior are incredible. Like I've seen Lili Chin's work, I see her illustrations up at the shelter, like in the dog volunteer room, and they're so good. She just conveys with an image so much. Like she's like, Oh, these, these positions mean that I need a little space, like, let's do that for rabbits.

Let's do, I need a little space positions. I want you to pet me, like positions and things they do with their body. All of those different types of those categories. It's, oh, it's so good. I want that. And she also works with like dogs, of course, and cats with different body types. So she'd be really good at describing like, what do you look at in terms of ears for a lop eared rabbit?

Like you don't have those clues. Or what about a tripod rabbit? You can't look at those back legs, which often tell you a lot about what they're thinking. Or like a long haired rabbit. Those, they, it's hard to see them how fast they're breathing some of their muscle tension, it's hard to see there's so many body types. Yeah.

Oh, it is so hard. Oh, I, I also want to say one thing. I forgot to do and that I need to give a plug for red eyed rabbits. They are the hardest rabbits to adopt, and they are my very favorite. And I'll tell you why one reason I think it's easier to read their behavior, their eyes, there's a lot of contrast in the first, you can see the changes in shape, you can see the pupil size changing. And just because of their shape that it's easier to see their muscles change, and the shifts in body weight, and they're so cute on there, they are just the best. I'm saying that as if it's a fact.. 

[01:15:21] Emily: Well, okay, so, so to, to summarize what you're saying is this episode is dedicated to you, Lili Chin. We love you and we think you could be a great bunny advocate and please have a section of your book be dedicated to, no, I was, no, no, no, I was going to say please have a section of your book be dedicated to red eyed rabbits.

[01:15:44] Thea: That's part of my, like, she does like, draws a picture of her Boston Terrier, and I'm forgetting his name, and they look great in illustrations, but she could also do a Dutch Rabbit, that black and white, look like they're wearing pants, they're like Boston Terriers, they look like that. There are many opportunities here, Lili, they're, we could, we should. We can chat.

[01:16:01] Emily: Alright, what do you love about what you do? 

[01:16:03] Thea: this is going to sound very corny and it is very corny. It is. I'm not going to deny it. But my favorite thing about working with rabbits is working with rabbit people. I love rabbit people. I just feel very close to them. I think that they are objectively better. I'm just kidding. there's it's like we have a special bond because rabbits not, while a lot of people have had rabbits in proportion to cats and dogs and other exotics, it's not quite as many. So, it's a special bond. It's like we're all in on the same secret. The rabbits are amazing and we get to talk about our rabbits and gush over them together. And we get to be proud of each other's rabbits when they do great things. And we get to care for each other when bad things happen, like when our rabbits pass away or are ill and support each other. It's just a wonderful community and a wonderful group of people.

[01:16:52] Emily: It doesn't surprise me that rabbit people are like the docile friends who get along. I just, I just need to say this because, thea, you and I have, have picked a lot of fights in this episode, but we say everything that we're saying, we're saying with so much love for all, all species, and everybody who loves animals, and takes care of whatever their species are that they care for. We're saying this with love. We don't, we don't feel any animosity towards anybody. 

[01:17:19] Thea: No, no, of course not. I love working with dog people too, but know, rabbits are my primary species. So we're their people.

[01:17:27] Emily: Yeah, you should. Rabbits are your primary species, so you should love rabbit people. I, I, I love all species, and I love humans. I love working with humans. But, there are some species that have a special er place in my heart, not because I think they're intrinsically better, but just because I have more of a relationship with or connection to them. So, so, I get it. I just, I just need to make it clear that, like, there's no haterade in what we're talking about. 

[01:17:54] Thea: No hate, just love. 

[01:17:55] Emily: What are you currently working on? If people want to work with or learn from you, where can they find you?

[01:18:01] Thea: So they can reach out to me on my website, badass bunny rescuer. com or on Instagram. Badass bunny rescuer. I'm currently taking clients, bonding clients. That's my specialty. So if you're having a problem with your rabbit, if it's not going smoothly, if there's been an issue with bonding, you can reach out, I'd love to work with people. I love rabbit people. So if you're a rabbit person, 

[01:18:22] Emily: You're going to get along. All right. Thank you so much for talking with me today. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot. I have so many takeaways that I'm going to go apply immediately to Bundini, so I appreciate you deeply for all that you do and for your time today.

[01:18:38] Thea: Oh, well, thank you so much. I'm honored to be here this. I love your podcast. I refer people to it all the time, and I think your work has really enriched rabbits lives.

[01:18:49] Emily: Oh, thanks. Thank you. 

[01:18:51] Allie: All right, what did I tell you? Thea is just amazing. I love how passionate she is about improving rabbit welfare and well being and how creative her solutions are. She's so great at taking concepts from other species, and applying them to rabbits, and vice versa. I always learn so much about rabbits every time I talk to her. Next week, we'll be talking about when you can't be your own consultant.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.