#94 - Ryan Cartlidge: Building Community through Crucial Conversations

In this week's interview episode, we're joined by Ryan Cartlidge, the founder of the Animal Training Academy, ATA. He has been working internationally since 2007, as a professional trainer across Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the US. He now works with both teams and individual trainers around the world, supporting those who work with both domestic pets and exotic animals. His goal is to help all trainers enhance their skills and make their biggest possible positive impact in the work they do.

In this episode, you’re going to hear Emily and Ryan talk about:

• You are not alone.
• Community is critical.
• “Crucial Conversations” is universally applicable.
• How Ryan made eggs for buzzards.

You can find the full episode show notes here. 

It's here! The Pet Harmony Relaxation Protocol Course for Professionals gives you the skills to help pets self-regulate emotions without constant cues, avoid escalation by moving away from stress, cope with fears like thunderstorms and separation anxiety. Ready to teach relaxation as a skill? Sign up for our Relaxation Protocol Course for Professionals and empower pets to manage stress. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ryan: I like being flawed human, what I mean is that those that flawedness, albeit extremely uncomfortable and unpleasant to sometimes have to navigate. That the growth mindset allows you to reframe that, to first feel that and go, this is a hard situation. If someone else was in my situation right now, they would find it hard. It is okay to feel not nice right now. This is hard. But then to go, what, what can I learn from the situation? That is, that is what I mean. Like that learning part that often might come after it might come significantly after, but that growth and that curiosity about what you can learn and what you can take away and how you might do things differently, that that is what I mean when I say I like being a flawed human. 

[00:00:51] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:08] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:09] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

 Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. 

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Ryan Cartlidge. Ryan Cartlidge is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer through the Karen Pryor Academy, with a passion for training methods that prioritize the most positive and least intrusive options for the learners he works with. He has been working internationally since 2007 as a professional trainer across Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the U. S. And in 2015, Ryan founded the Animal Training Academy, otherwise known as ATA, which has allowed him to further extend his global impact. He now works with both teams and individual trainers around the world, supporting those who work with both domestic pets and exotic animals. His goal is to help all trainers enhance their skills and make their biggest possible positive impact in the work they do.

We've had the opportunity to work with Ryan a few times through ATA, and he is just one of the kindest humans that I have ever met. His energy is contagious and infectious in the absolute best way possible, and I am so thrilled that he agreed to be on our podcast. In this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Ryan talk about, you are not alone, community is critical, Crucial Conversations is universally applicable, and how Ryan made eggs for buzzards. Alright, here it is, today's episode, Ryan Cartlidge, building community through crucial conversations. 

[00:03:02] Emily: Okay. Tell us your name, your pronouns, and your pets.

[00:03:05] Ryan: Hi everyone, my name is Ryan Cartlidge, him slash his, and I live with five mini earthlings at the moment. We have Phoebe Dog, who is cross Chihuahua and Silky Terrier. We have two cats, domestic short haired cats. We have a four year old human learner. She's an amazing learner. And we have a nine month old human learner who's just started crawling, and is teaching us loads about learning from scratch, literally.

[00:03:40] Emily: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I, I have to sidebar because I wanted to look up the meaning of the word pet, because so many people don't like calling their, their companion animals pets. And I found out that it actually generated from, I think the 19th century, and it didn't at first refer to non humans. It was a term of endearment for humans, like my pet, like, if you think about it, like, it makes sense. Like, oh, my pet. And then it just started being applied to non humans and now it's like the semantic drift has made it almost entirely referred to non humans. And that delighted me and it made me feel a lot better about calling them pets because I now think it's super appropriate to, to just refer to all your little loved ones as pets. So I enjoy that when I asked you about your pets, you included your two human little poppets.

[00:04:31] Ryan: I mean, we've got more than five learners in our house because obviously I live there and my wife lives there. But many, many learners, they keep us on our toes, and we're consistently leveraging our knowledge of behavior to help them succeed and to guide them.

[00:04:49] Emily: I love that. All right. Well tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:04:53] Ryan: Well, I am from New Zealand. I have been working with animals circa since 2007. Uh, I, and I'm going to talk about a specific learner I worked with later. But I want to share a little bit of that story now because when thinking about your question, I think that that learner way back in around 2008, 2009, 2010, taught me more back then, you know from a single learner then potentially any learner. Apart from my kids, probably. That I've met since then and definitely had the most profound impact on me. I think when I'm You know at my end My final days and thinking back on my life, there's this bird I've referred to him as Bob in some of my content, but his real name was Reg. I, when I first started, I was like, he was still at the zoo, and I was like, do I, I didn't know the etiquette around anything, so I just made up that his name was Bob. But his real name's Reg, so if I switch between those two, I apologise. 

But this bird was demonstrating aggressive behaviours towards me, and, and I had no idea, about anything to do with training. I got a job in a department of a zoo where my job was pretty much training all day. We, we had birds, we were free flying birds for the visitors to the park. And, and the purpose of that was to wow them, obviously, to give the, the visitors a great experience, but also that opportunity then becomes more available to you as a zoo staff member to impart valuable information. So we really wanted to talk about the birds, and the plight of their species in the wild, and what differences the zoo visitors could make in terms of their own behavior. 

For example, we had a magpie, an Australian magpie. From the Corvid family, incredibly smart animals, so much fun to work with. One of my favorite species, just doing a very simple behavior of picking up rubbish and putting it in the bin. So, we could have a lot of fun, and, and talk about recycling and those really simple things that we can all do and kids can enjoy and learn about. 

But this bird was Reg, the Reg, the Wedge Tailed Eagle. Everyone knows what an eagle is. For those not from Australia, you might not know what a Wedge Tailed eagle is. It is one of the larger eagle species. Big wedge tail, as the name suggests. Huge talons. They've got massive beaks, but their talons are, the pointy ends are dangerous, ends are extremely powerful, they can crush bones. So, you're not, you're, you're dealing with a animal that has the potential to inflict serious injury, if it's so desired. And it's so desired to me, I could work with this individual in a setting where we had him out freely. 

So when you think, if you don't know about the flying of birds in zoological context, and when we use the term free flight, what we mean is, the birds are free. They can fly away whenever they want. They are free to leave, there's no leashes, or ropes, or confinement in any way. They come out, and we work with them, and then they go home again. And I could work in that context. I had things that the individual desired, big chunks of meat. 

This Reg knew the routines in this environment really well. He knew the behaviours, he'd been doing them for years. He came out, saw me, did the things, got the meat, went home. But if I went into his enclosure it was a different story. And those talons were aimed at my face, and so I didn't know anything, and I was asking those in the facility, in the organisation, hey, can you help me?

And the people there had learned from their on the job experience. And so, they were giving me what they had learned. And with birds of prey, there's a long history of falconry. So, that means using birds of prey to hunt, taking them actually out and hunting rabbits and hunting other prey items. It's still a large part of cultures around the world.

In the Middle East, I've been to Abu Dhabi a couple of years ago, and there's falconry stuff everywhere, in a huge falconry center. So you walk through the, they don't really have a subway, but there was some kind of transport tunnel and it was all mosaics of falconry stuff, which is cool for a bird nerd like myself.

But these, this thing, falconry and the practices that are involved in it, involve some techniques which flood the animals. So, what I mean when I say that is they put the animals in situations that they can't escape from, and they teach them that their behavior and, and, that term falconry, it means so many different things to so many different people.

So, I'm just sharing a version of it, but you might not use or, practice the things that I'm talking about and use the same word. So, I don't want to, poopoo that word or poopoo anything about that, but there are some practices involved in falconry where learners are put in situations where they, their behavior doesn't influence their environment, they don't have control.

And so, this is the situation I found myself in with Reg trying to deal with this aggressive behavior. We were putting him in situations, and I didn't know anything. Where we took away his control. 

So what that looked like was, birds of prey can have anklets on their legs. And what an anklet is, is it's a piece of leather. It wraps around their, their ankle area. Well, it's actually a bit different on the bird, but let's just call it an ankle for the sake of everyone understanding, where this might be located on the bird. What you might think of as the ankle of the bird, where it's foot ends and there's a piece of leather that wraps around there and it has a little bit that pokes out at the back.

In that little bit there's a thing called an eyelet which is a hole. And basically through this hole you can thread a piece of rope called a jess. So you thread a piece of rope through this hole, and you can hold on to these jesses, hold on to these ropes, and therefore you've got, the bird can't get away from you.

Now, that jesses, and anklets, and all of this equipment is super important if you're working with birds of prey. They are used as safety tools, so if you have to take a bird through an area, and something spooks it, it keeps the bird safe, you safe, and people that it might be in that vicinity, and other animals that might be in that vicinity safe.

Some people use them as training tools. So, this was the case with Reg at the time, where his jesses were tied to a stump, and I was told to approach him and, and do things with him, when he couldn't get me, he couldn't attack me and he had no choice to move away from me. What I could clearly see though was that it wasn't working.

The, the behavior in the enclosure wasn't changing. The context was completely different than when he was tied to a perch. And so, I went traveling, and I visited other zoos and, and one, there's moments in your journeys as animal trainers that probably stick out to you, and then you realize how pivotal they were, and, I went to Taronga Zoo in Sydney, and I met a man called Nick Bishop, who, with his team, started to talk to me about positive reinforcement.

And about how I could teach this learner through successive approximations to get from where we were to where we wanted to be. And this all started to make a lot of sense to me, and this Nick was really kind and generous with his time, he'd ring me up and he'd talk me through things. And I was always of the, motivation that I was like, how did, how did Nick get this knowledge? What did Nick do? What did Nick read? Where did Nick go? Who does Nick know? Who should I know that Nick knows that I don't know? 

And I remember thinking with Reg, I was like, I have no idea what to do here. No idea. But I really want to work with this bird, and someone somewhere in the world knows how to do it. And I just, I have to meet the best person to, to tell me how to do that. If they were here, they could do it. I just have to meet them, and ask them how to do it. And so Nick told me, he's like, you've got to meet this guy called Steve Martin. Steve Martin, for those that don't know, is a bird trainer, and an exotic animal trainer, and trainer of all species, but does a lot of stuff with birds, lives in Florida. Has this big company called Natural Encounters, which I've been lucky enough to do some interning with over the years.

I know a lot of their staff. It's an amazing organization, they're amazing people and I have a lot of amazing things to say about them and I can't go on for long enough about how much I appreciate what they've done for me and what they do for many learners around the world. But, Nick said, Steve's coming Ken's Tropical Zoo.

It's fantastic. It's It's I was like, oh cool, like I'm gonna meet Steve. Next thing, I'm gonna meet Steve. So I brought tickets to the conference he was at and I, I flew there and Steve was there and then I just, I was like, where did Steve learn all of this stuff from? Like, how does Steve know this? Like, what did Steve do? Who did Steve learn from? Where did Steve travel to? So, thinking back then, I always feel like I was probably pretty annoying, but I was just hanging around him, like asking questions, asking questions, and I finally got to like, who's your biggest influence now, who'd you learn the most out from?

And he said, Dr. Susan Friedman. And I went, who's Dr. Susan Friedman? And he pointed across the room and he said, her. And I went, and I obviously not looked at the schedule at all, or what was happening at this conference. I'd just gone there to meet Steve. And I was like, oh, amazing. And so, I creepily went down to the buffet breakfast the next morning at the place the conference was and stood in the shadows and waited for Susan to come in, with her family. She was there with her partner and her two daughters, and sat down and I, then I came out of the shadows and went, oh, is this seat free? And I, and I sat down and started to talk to Susan and which was the beginning of a beautiful friendship and mentorship.

And then Susan, I said to Susan, who, who, you know, you know, when did Susan learn this? Like, how did Susan become Susan? And I asked her who her biggest influence was and she said, BF Skinner. And I went, well, he's dead. So, I want to learn everything from you, and she remembers that. She told me the other day, she remembers that I told, pretty much told her, like, I want to learn everything I can from you.

And then, In her presentation, she taught us about FAIDs, which, if you don't know what that means, it stands for Functional Assessment and Intervention Design. It's about looking at an individual problem, or behaviour, or challenge you're facing with an individual learner and working through a series of questions to come up with an intervention, designing an intervention.

And so, I sat there and I brainstormed, and went through these questions with a black breasted buzzard we had at the time. If you don't know what a black breasted buzzard is, which I'm assuming is 99 percent of people out there, it's, apart from the Australians, is it's a bird of prey that lives in the outback in Australia, and that they're known because they're one of only two species in the world who have this innate behavior of picking up rocks, and throwing them at eggs to smash them. So they will smash emu eggs. And the other species being the Egyptian vulture, who does it with ostrich eggs. And, anyway, we had this black breasted buzzard called Kingy. And Kingy would fly down to the ground and, and bite my shoes, and grab my shoes, and just get in the way of everything that we try to do in his holding space in terms of cleaning his water, and picking up his poo, and uneaten food.

And I came up with station training right there with Susan in this conference setting, which was brand new to me. I'd never thought about station training in my life. Went back, station trained Kingy, and problem solved. And I went, well, that worked. 

But I share this story because I don't think that, that version of me, well I know that that version of me, which is, I don't know what to do here, but someone does I'm going to find that person and I'm going to ask them. Has never left me and it's, and it's, it gave me the, and then we, I trained Reg and Reg was a big puppy dog at the end of the day. I've got video of him on his perch, and you'd walk up to Reg, and you'd stick your hands under his wings, his giant wings, two meter long wingspan, once they were all stretched out, and give him some big scratches and he'll push his head into you, and he'll roll his talons up and he'll just lean into you so much so that if you, if you step back, he would fall off the perch. He was, that they are really affectionate in terms of defining affection as what I just, described, birds. I don't think I've worked with many birds of prey, if any, that I've had that kind of relationship with.

I went back years later, Reg came straight down to me and the keepers were like, whoa, like he just smashes, he flies that really hard to mesh if he doesn't know strangers. We don't let strangers go up there. But we formed an amazing relationship, but the I share that story because I Know that the listeners of this show, and hello listeners of this show, hello ATA members, Pet Harmony people I know that there's so much crossover here. Me and Emily were talking about that. But, I know that so many people are in that position, right? Like, they don't know what to do, they might be isolated in their, geographical location without that support network.

Those who they're reaching out to, might not necessarily have the, the helpful information. The, the, suggesting the tools that are actually going to aid them, and so I've taken that situation of Reg and we've built Animal Training Academy now. I spent years working in zoos and I started to work with domestic species, got my Karen Pryor dog training certification, fear free certification, all of these bits and pieces that your listeners will be familiar with.

But now we, we provide a platform through Animal Training Academy, which I've been doing for eight years, I think, nine years, maybe, where we help people in that position. Like God, I wish I had Animal Training Academy or Pet Harmony back then. But that, that, that is, that is, what we aim to do is we aim to make those people who are stuck get connected with, Susan Friedman or whoever it is in our, on our planet that has the knowledge and information.

And we've been doing that, and building this community of global behaviour nerds, for eight years and it's, it's pretty special. And that's what I, that's where my journey has taken me. But I feel like I'm the same person that was standing there scratching my head of Reg not knowing where I was, or why, I knew where I was. That's a silly thing to say. Not knowing what I was going to do or how I was going to do it, but knowing that I could and knowing that someone could and figuring it out. 

[00:19:37] Emily: Yeah. I mean, I,

think saying not knowing where I was is apropos because, We're talking about metaphorically, like, I don't know where I am in this journey. I don't know where to start. Where am I going with this? I don't even know. So I don't think that was a mistake. I think that was a very honest thing to say. But I love your journey and there are so many threads that I want to pull out of it. One is that I, I find it delightful that you and I were going through the same journey at the same time, like years before we knew each other. And that, so what I call our mutual approach to learning is stray kittening. Where I just like find somebody who has like something to teach me, and I just sort of like follow them home, like a stray kitten. And I just keep meowing at them. Like, I know I'm probably annoying, but I'm just going to keep asking you questions because I want to learn what you know. 

So I love that you're a fellow stray kitten who just stray kittens people home. Um, you're welcome to take it. Yeah. But I think there's something really valuable to that kind of learning because it's a, it's a fearless kind of learning and it's a trusting kind of learning. And I think those are both beautiful things to be fearless and trusting in your learning journey, gives you access to resources that you might not otherwise have, get access to. And it connects you to people that, can give you a lot of, of value. And, it hasn't always worked out for me, not everybody that a stray kitten home wanted to be stray kittened. And and that's okay, right? They didn't ask for a kitten and so I have to respect those boundaries. But that's part of the fearlessness of it is, is knowing that sometimes you're going to be rejected and. And just being okay with that, I think is, is really, is a really good practice. So I loved to hear that. And it was right around the same time that I was doing the same thing. And also telling Susan, I want to learn everything from you. I'm going to just follow you around for the rest of your life. Yeah, so, so I think that's delightful.

Another thing that I wanted to pull out of that is that continuous growth mindset that no matter how long you've been doing this or how much you have learned, you still have that mindset of like, I have so much to learn and I'm going to just keep, I'm going to keep learning. And that, that is beautiful too. And yeah, I think that's a really big deal when we get to the point where we feel like we don't have anything else to learn or, or Have learned at all. That's to me a sign that we should maybe quit and go do something else. So I, I love to hear that growth mindset.

[00:22:04] Ryan: Yeah, and what's really, thank you for saying those, those kind of things. I love the growth mindset and, and we've done some podcasts, you could say something growth mindset and we've read the growth mindset, but by the particular book I'm talking about by Carol Dweck, if those listening don't know what we're talking about when we say the growth mindset.

And it's been such a popular piece of content and focus for our members that I know it's changed, literally changed, those who have really dived into it. Not everyone, but a significant amount of people in our membership has changed their lives. And I don't say that lightly, but to get the information and the knowledge and the insights from that book, and think about your own journey and your own learning and those around you.

It's pretty profound. The other thing I just want to highlight from what you just said, Emily, is that we were there together, at the same time. When I say there, we didn't know where we were, but we were both on planet Earth, like not in the same location, but treading the same path and, and, and going down the same journey.

At the time, I, I working in zoos always felt lonely in a way, because I'd done LLA, and I could, and I could see the use of labels, and I could understand how that was really inhibiting progress with our programs. And I also did not have the skills to communicate or be an effective influencer in those spaces.

And so it's, it's, interesting for me now to think about is as you share that you're somewhere else in the world on that same journey, like how lonely? And I wasn't sitting there going, oh, my god, I'm so lonely. But like it was lonely. It was like And, and for those who are listening who are maybe in a shelter environment, or maybe you're in a zoo environment, and you're surrounded by, a organization, or group of people who are disempowering in that way.

And, and, and also it's hard to like, it's so hard to be in that space, and really influence culture and growth and practices and all of that stuff in an organization. But it can be so lonely, and it's so interesting to think that we were on that same journey. And I, and I just want to share with the podcast listeners that you might be on that journey, and that's why I love what Animal Training Academy, and Pet Harmony, and all of our communities that we've created is that you don't have to be alone anymore. 

But, Emily, we did a survey last year and it was surprising to me that people specifically identified this. They're, maybe not in an organisation but they're in a geographical location where there aren't other positive reinforcement trainers around, and they're lonely. They feel isolated. And so it's, it's interesting to think that we were doing that then, and it's just, I just want to say to everyone that if you have been in that position or you're in that position now, that we don't need to be anymore, like, we, like, we have Animal Training Academy, we have Pet Harmony, we have all of these amazing organisations, and there are people on this planet right now going through what you've been through, and there are people that have been through that, and I, and I just love, I love that. I love, I've realised how important community is. I think I realise more and more. But specifically over the last year or so, I've just really come to understand how incredibly important community is.

[00:25:20] Emily: Yes. I cannot agree with you enough about that because it has been the recurring feedback that we've gotten in PETPro is the, the, feeling of isolation that people had before they were in PETPro and then after joining it, the feeling that they, they have a community of people who understand them and truly, sincerely support them are in their corner. And it's a safe place to be vulnerable and to, to really just ask the hard questions and, and bring their cases and, and admit the, the, the fear, and the insecurity, and all the things that we all feel, but nobody thinks that anybody else feels, and so you have to put on a front, like you're confident, you know, all the stuff, right.

And, and what's interesting is that, as I've been learning more about different social justice issues, and really delving into, the, the work of social justice, what, what I'm learning from the, my teachers and my mentors in anti racism is best way to be anti racist is to, involve yourself in the community, to be a part of the community. The best way to participate in disability justice is to form a community, and be in community with others. And that's just the repeating theme of like, wherever we are in life, community is so important. And I think that we just see that we just see that over and over again, that, isolation is so harmful and, and community is really the thing that saves us. 

That was a direct quote from Kassidi Jones, we just had her on the podcast not too long ago and she said, community will be the thing that saves us. And I was like, damn. Yeah, yes, that is so true. So yeah, I, I really resonate with all of that. 

There's one additional thread I want to pull out of what you said, and that is your search for the provenance of the knowledge that, that you found in people of like, okay, well, where did he learn this? Okay. Well, where did he learn this? Well, where did she learn this? And that is such an important skill that I think maybe if you don't even realize that that's a skill that you have. I need to just tell you that's a skill that you have because, one of the things that we really focus on in PETPro is epistemology.

I've, I've spoken about it on our podcast multiple times. But for those of you who have not heard me speak about it before, epistemology is, assessing the quality of the knowledge and the information that we receive. So asking ourselves, how do we know that what we believe is true? And as people are learning about epistemology in our community, a question that I get a lot is like, how do it's so hard, and pseudoscience can seem so convincing, and like, there are so many things where it's a gray area of maybe not totally pseudoscience, but like some inaccuracies within, an actual scientific process. And when we're looking at research design and how we can assess, the, the integrity of a research study, they're like, Oh, there's so much to know. Like, I don't, I don't, I can't learn all this. And I see people starting to panick when they're like diving off the Dunning Kruger cliff and realizing how much there is to know. 

And, and my answer to them is exactly what you already do, Ryan, which is, you don't have to be an expert in all of that. You don't have to become a subject matter in everything, all you need to ask is, that's interesting, where did you learn that? And you just follow the trail, you follow the provenance of that information until you find its source. And, and the sources are going to have integrity, the sources are going to be robust, and there's going to be community consensus, and there's going to be data behind the, the really solid information, right? And so I just loved hearing you tell your story about like, okay, well, where did you learn this? All right. Well, where did you learn this? Because that's exactly what people should be doing to, to assess the quality and the integrity of the information they're receiving. It's just beautiful, beautiful work. I appreciate you and the many skills and, and, talents and compassion that you bring to our profession.

[00:29:20] Ryan: Thank you. I appreciate your kindness and in those words then they mean a lot to me and it reminds me of something that Rick Heister and Susan said recently when we hosted them at ATA for a live podcast which we did last month, which you've never done. We recorded live within our membership on on LIMA, And we went back to as far as we could with guidance from Susan and Rick to where that acronym came from, and where or what its meaning was from the original source that we could find. And where that came from.

But they, they coined, I think what you said, as Susan so often does, right? She takes this big idea and he breaks it down into like a couple of words like Behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum, for example. But a new one that I've just heard them saying recently and one that our members mentioned afterwards really resonated with them as well was move slow, think hard. And that's has been in my mind ever since and I think it, what you're saying reminds me of that say. So potentially a new Susanism that, and, and Rick-anism, I have to say now. 

[00:30:37] Emily: I used to joke that if I like tattooed every one liner that I got from Susan on my body, I would just be like head to toe tattoos because she is so good about, like you said, taking big concepts and distilling them down into these simple, pithy, easy to remember phrases and saying. I love that one. Move slow, think hard. Beautiful. I love that.

[00:31:00] Ryan: There was one other thing that, and it's going off on a bit of a side tangent, but I think it was an important part of my journey and, and related to what you were saying about the beauty of trying to ask people where they learned, what they learned, how they know, what they know. Another valuable use of that for my time with Reg was I had to then go back to this organization with no knowledge, or experience and say, hey, I want to do these things. Yeah, people were open to it. But there was challenges as there are in team environments when people have different ideas, and people lack communication skills, which was definitely me at the time. But I remember, think, I remember thinking as I walked to or rode my bike to that park every day. With, with every team member there, and with myself and them and their relationship with me, if we knew everything about that person and where they had come from, what their experiences had been in life when they were young, as a teenager, in adulthood, what books they had read, what movies they had seen, where they had traveled to, what trauma they had been through, what joys they had experienced, we would understand them.

Their behavior would make sense to us. And I just remember vividly just thinking that every morning, and I think that helped me be curious, and I was excited when I saw a podcast episode from you and your team about specifically that. Getting curious. So I think it applies, it applies for your search of knowledge, but it just applies in general. In our interactions with our non human learners, but really importantly with all human learners, not only those we want to seek knowledge from.

[00:32:47] Emily: Yes, absolutely. And I will say that, first, first of all, thank you. I'm touched that the, that, that get curious podcast was resonating with you. But also I have learned from, from that experience of, of learning how to get curious and learning how to think of behavior in context. Not just the immediate context, but the big, big picture that I can tell when I am getting And I don't just mean like physically tired, but when I have used too many of my spoons, when I'm emotionally tired, when I'm cognitively tired, when in my mind, I know that that is how I should be responding to some of these behavior, but emotionally, And physically, it's really hard to, and I just want to like react and lash out when I no longer have the patience to be curious and to think of their behavior, in this sort of like objective, compassionate problem solving way, but I just want to lash out. That's a sign to me that I need rest, that I need to spend some time recuperate and doing some cup filling projects. Because, because yeah, even though I know that. And I talk about it. I still, that doesn't mean that I'm perfect at it. And I think that that is something to remember when people are learning this.

I think we tend to be really hard on ourselves and expect perfection. And then when we're not perfect, we're like, oh, I suck at this or whatever, and I think it is really important to remember that like, you can know these things. And if you find that you can't do them, even though you know them, that is not a sign of your failure as a, as a human being. It's just a sign that you need rest. And you need to fill your cup. Because it is hard. Human behavior is hard, right? Even, even when you know what to do, you're still spending energy doing it. So, I think that's an important sort of the next step of that lesson of getting curious is, care of yourself in the process of getting curious, cause it does take effort for sure. 

[00:34:38] Ryan: Yeah. And I think if, if my wife listens to this, she's going to be saying, who is this Podcast Ryan? And can he have a conversation with Husband Ryan? Because he could, he could, he can see some pretty good wisdom with Husband Ryan. In fact, Husband Ryan, come here. Listen to this. 

[00:34:54] Emily: You know what? I'm going to pull out another Susanism. Because I was talking to Susan about this and she responded to me when I was just telling her about how I get this, what I call Crucial conversation fatigue when I've had to have too many crucial conversations and then I just can't anymore, and I am not my best self. And I was telling Susan that, and, and she just nodded her head and paused for a little bit. And she goes, I am at my best self when I am teaching, and in the rest of my life, I aspire to be my teaching self. And I was like, all right, that's a really good way to think about it.

[00:35:27] Ryan: And that, and that's the Susanism that jokes when it's Susan. I hear Susan do often than she does with me. And, and I think my kids. My kids make, I want to be Podcast Ryan and I'm motivated to be Podcast Ryan for my kids at the moment. Like I have this brand new motivation in my life that's making me think about everything that my kids are seeing me do and modeling, so. 

[00:35:50] Emily: I think it is important to model imperfection and how you respond to that. Because nobody's, nobody's, nobody is going to be our podcast selves, or our teaching selves 100 percent of the time. So modeling what, what, how you handle the situations where you're not your best self, I think is just as helpful, and healing, and supportive for the people who are learning from you as it, as, I think it's more helpful and supportive than if you were just always perfect.

Because if you were always perfect, then people would be like, well, clearly you're not human. You're some like superhuman saint thing, but when people get to see you just be a human, and be flawed, and imperfect and see how you handle that and process that, I think that's the most supportive thing you can do. It takes you off the pedestal and puts you squarely on the ground And shows people how to, how to be a flawed human, you with still compassion. 

[00:36:38] Ryan: I love, I love being a flawed human.

[00:36:40] Emily: I do too. Yeah. It's great. I wouldn't want to be perfect. Here's, here, I'm going to, I'm going to say something that Allie and Ellen are going to to like chuckle and just put their foreheads in their hands. One of my favorite things is when I do things that make Allie and Ellen chuckle and put their foreheads in their hands, I love it. I love just doing, just being like, just Emily and having my business partners slash professional wives. Just be like, why are you Emily? Like it's delightful to just be maybe not, not the most perfect human.

[00:37:11] Ryan: When, when I, when I say I like being flawed human, what I mean is that those that flawedness albeit extremely uncomfortable and unpleasant to sometimes have to navigate. That the growth mindset allows you to reframe that, to first feel that and go, this is a hard situation. If someone else was in my situation right now, they would find it hard. It is okay to feel not nice right now. This is hard. But then to go, what, what can I learn from the situation? That is, that is what I mean. Like that learning part that often might come after, it might come significantly after, but that growth and that curiosity about what you can learn, and what you can take away, and how you might do things differently, that that is what I mean when I say I like being a flawed human.

[00:38:03] Emily: Yes, I agree with you. I was being a little bit flippant because I enjoy, you know, playing. I am reinforced by hazing my, my business partners.

[00:38:13] Ryan: I am so reinforced by it.

[00:38:16] Emily: So I was being a little bit flippant, but yes, absolutely. My biggest growth moments are like come immediately after my biggest failures, right. The moments when I absolutely have a meltdown are the moments that I'm like, oh, okay. So something happened here that I need to, I need to learn from and grow from. So yes, yes. Thank you for, for being, taking the topic more seriously. Cause I was, I was poking at my, the two women that I love most. 

[00:38:44] Ryan: I I like to poke people and it, and it trouble. 

[00:38:48] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's delightful. It is, it is. Okay. So I, I, we've, I love letting the conversation go where it goes. But I will be very sad if I don't get to say this. So I'm just going to say that I'm really excited that we finally get to have you here on the podcast, and finally get to offer some reciprocity because, for those of you listening, who don't know, Ryan has been incredibly kind to us over the years and it's just always a joy to work with you.

And I will tell you that Allie, and Ellen, and I collaborated on the interview topics we wanted to cover because we were, we were like, okay, what do we, what do we want to know about Ryan? Like, now that we get him, like bring him into our sphere, what are we going to, what are we going to talk to you about? So, you said at the beginning that Reg slash Bob, you, you talked about his influence on you. 

And I know that we were planning on talking more about him, I, I actually have a question about the buzzard. So, I'm curious if you read the, him grabbing at your shoes as coming from that rock throwing behavior, like, was that, is there a connection you think between the shoe grabbing and the rock throwing?

[00:40:03] Ryan: Potentially. I, I had actually never thought about that before up until this moment. And likely, maybe I did, because in Susan's Functional Assessment of Intervention Design Forms, one of the questions is, this isn't verbatim, but something along the lines of, how does this behaviour serve the species in the wild? So, undoubtedly I would have asked that question, and logically, what you've just explained is something that might fit in as an answer to that question. So potentially I did think about it at the time. 

[00:40:37] Emily: So the reason I'm asking is because I'm really curious if he had opportunities to throw rocks in other ways. And if so, what did that look like? 

[00:40:45] Ryan: Yeah, so, that behaviour of picking up rocks and throwing them at eggs is, why, for, I don't, I don't know a black breasted buzzard that's in a context like, Kingy was, the context being a training context where this animal is going to be performing behaviours in front of zoo visitors. I don't know of any, and I'm sure there are, but I don't know of any black breasted buzzards that aren't in that role in, in a, zoological context and again, I'm sure there are if you're listening, and I just don't know any. But that behavior was something that with black breasted buzzards, and and other species who do similar behaviors, I'm thinking of a seriama which picks up lizards, and like slams them down on rocks, like these are innate behaviors.

So we could give Kingy a rock, and we could give Kingy an egg, and And we wouldn't have to think about a shaping plan. We would get the behavior of picking up the rock and smashing the egg. So, a big part of having a black breasted buzzard in a show context is the creation of eggs. So you have to literally make eggs.

So there, I can't even remember what the material was that we made the eggs out of. It was like a clay type substance, and we had molds and every day we would have to make these eggs. And with a, with a hole in them, I can't even remember how we did it, but we put meat in them, and then we'd put these two pieces together and we'd have these eggs that we could use for the show.

For the, for the times when we took Kingy out and showed visitors what these birds are doing in the wild. So, lots of opportunities daily to, to perform that behaviour. And you didn't get trained every single day, but generally speaking, to do that specific behaviour.

[00:42:28] Emily: Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Because when you were describing this behavior, I was like, I am sure there is some cool enrichment stuff that was happening with this rock throwing behavior. And that is so cool. Making eggs out of clay. I, I don't know that I would have thought of that. That is so clever. I probably would have just like, been like, how do we get emu eggs for this guy?

[00:42:52] Ryan: I mean, I think people do it much smarter now where they've got like an egg that they can put back together. At the time, the technology we had was, we were literally making every single egg.

[00:43:02] Emily: That's so cool. Thank you for sharing because I had a feeling that it was going to be something really awesome like that. Okay. So I, I have a question that's actually a series of questions. So first of all, you've worked in animal care all over the world, and with people from all over the world and what are some skills that you've worked to develop when navigating relationships that span time zones and cultures?

[00:43:26] Ryan: Yeah, well, I think the time zone and cultures thing, I don't, I can't think of any cultural stuff that's been super tricky to navigate. Time zones can be. Just had two people this week schedule 1am calls for themselves without realising that that had happened. It's difficult with the UK and Europe at the moment and being in New Zealand, but anyway, I think the relationship stuff has been, is universal in my experience anyway.

Language and, and the understanding of words and, and those kinds of barriers definitely can influence things. But I haven't, I haven't found that it's influenced things enough to really be a problem. It, it, it can be in terms of how things come across in a community context. And I, and I've, I've had, I've heard people say before, oh, in my culture, we're just more straightforward and we're more blunt.

And tha t irks me a little bit, because I think, if you're acknowledging that, and you're an individual learner, that you're acknowledging that you're kind of framing something to say, I'm going to present something that I know might upset my audience. And I, and I, and I feel like, it's disempowering to the person saying it because you have the opportunity to say some, to say it differently. If you are aware that your audience might respond in a certain way. 

[00:44:59] Emily: I am going to offer my perspective because I am one of those people. And I think not only do I come from like in, in Texas, the, the, sort of like saying that we have about our communication and cultures that we're straight shooters. We mean what we say, and we say what we mean. And then I think that is compounded by the fact that over the past few years, I've discovered that, I both have ADHD and autism. And people with these different neurodiversities, particularly autism, really struggle reading social cues, and subtext in, in conversation. And so, it was really validating and an aha moment for me because I often, felt confused by the way that I, perfectly capable of understanding, detailed and nuanced information and yet I would, and I don't consider myself a gullible person. I am, I'm very interested in and, and cultivating, and utilizing critical thinking skills. And yet. I would completely miss the point of conversations. People would say something to me, and I would have no idea what they were talking about. And, and that contributed a lot to my social anxiety because I had, by the time I'm in my forties, I've learned enough to know that people had subtext, they were saying something with their body, or their words, but I couldn't understand what they were saying. 

And so, and conversely, there have been many times in my life when I have said something that I felt was just a neutral observation, it wasn't meant as a criticism, it wasn't meant as an attack. It would, to me, it was the equivalent of being like, Oh, it's raining outside. Or like, oh, my grass is yellow because it's summertime and the grass gets yellow in summertime. I would make a statement that would feel to me that emotionally neutral. I And get these huge offense reactions from people where people would call me difficult, or say that I was being abrasive. And I, and I would be very confused because I'd be like, I don't understand why this is offensive because I I'm literally just making an observation that was not in any way meant to be a criticism, and there's just big feelings about this thing that I just said, right? 

And so for me, I have learned to preface things that I'm like, this sounds, this seems to me like one of those situations where I'm going to say something that feels to me completely neutral and, but it feels like something that people might have feelings about, but because I have no idea why they would have feelings about it, I've learned to just say, I'm just going to say this the way I know how to say it, and I'm a very, I'm a very direct person, I'm a straight shooter and I'm autistic, and so like, I'm just going to make an observation and I'm just saying up front, this is not a criticism, it's just an observation.

So I've learned to have to like preface what I say with this disclaimer almost, because I've, I've just had enough learning history where I'm like, oh man, somebody is going to have feelings about this, and I don't know why, and I don't know what about it they're going to be mad about, but they probably will be because this has happened to me before. 

So, that is, that is my perspective of why, I have those conversations with people. The other reason that we have those conversations is because in PETPro, and when we hire people onto our team, we talk about our communication style so that people know what to expect from us. So when people first joined our team, or when people joined PETPro, we're like, hey, some people in this program, use no subtext or it takes a lot of energy and effort to manufacture subtext. Other people are really comfortable living in subtext and it's hard for them to get out of that and, and say what they mean to me, what they say and speak very directly. And it's important to know that so that we can avoid miscommunications and hurt feelings if we're aware of each other's communication styles. 

So we invite people to do some self reflection, and share that so that when we're in conversation in these, in this mixed company, that people can be aware that, oh, this person's a direct communicator, so they probably don't mean anything by it. There's probably no ulterior motive to that statement. It probably just, they probably just mean exactly what they said verbatim. Whereas this person might be trying to tell you that she's uncomfortable, and she doesn't know how to just say, this makes me uncomfortable,

so we got to maybe listen more to the body language and know that there are that we need to read between the lines, and then they're not going to be offended when I, a direct communicator asked them, I can see that you have subtext. I can see there's something between the lines, but I have no idea what it is, can you help me with that? Right? 

So, we found that it's actually really helpful to speak openly about our different communication styles so that we know what to expect, and we can avoid that kind of hurt feelings type of thing that happens. You know what I mean?

[00:49:44] Ryan: I do, and I want to express gratitude to you for your, your bravery in offering a different perspective to one that was just shared, I want to just say I value that highly. And I want to express empathy for you with some of those challenging situations that you were in, because I imagine that that would have been really difficult.

[00:50:08] Emily: Thank you. I think communication is always difficult regardless of what your communication style is. And I will say, having just shared my perspective, I have also heard people say, I don't have to worry about your hurt feelings, and I can say whatever I want without consequences because I just say it like it is, or I'm just a blunt speaker. And I think that's very different from what I'm talking about. But I still felt it was important to share my perspective because if people don't know that there's a difference, they may not be able to see a difference between those two attitudes. And, and I think it is important to see the difference between somebody who comes from a different communication culture, or somebody who is neurodiverse in some way versus somebody who's just totally unconcerned with hurting other people and not willing to be accountable for their behavior. I think that is an important distinction to make.

[00:51:00] Ryan: Right, and I'm glad for this opportunity, and I'm grateful for this opportunity to have this conversation and have it brought to my attention that I communicated that poorly because if you were thinking that, and the listeners of this show might have had similar experiences, then that would have been insulting.

And I could see how me saying that that irked me would irk you, having been through the situations that you've just shared with us. So, I'm grateful for this opportunity, that is happening right now to be a flawed human. And to, after this episode acknowledge, or not acknowledge, but, think about and deliver that perspective with more care, and, and nuance, and explanation. And I, I think you've done something that I didn't even have clear in my mind when I said it in terms of the distinction between those two things.

[00:52:00] Emily: For what it's worth, I didn't feel irked by it at all. The reason I was big grinning when you were talking is because I know exactly what he's talking about. And also, we need to tease apart these distinctions because they're important. So, I'm not offended because I understand your, your hurt and frustration when people don't care about bulldozing other people's feelings is valid. And also, I'm in a position to share those nuances with you, so I was not irked.

[00:52:25] Ryan: Yeah, and, and, and I think what you do so well is, and what Crucial Conversations, which is something that I wanted to talk about when reading that you'd sent me this question, teaches us, Crucial Conversations for those who are listening and are not aware is a whole suite of resources around that now. But it's, was first brought to my attention by the book, which is con, con, it's contrasting. It's to say, I want to talk about and address this, but what I don't want to do is this. And that's something that you're very good at. And I think that, that is part of the nuance and part of the distinction that you described is that when you are describing what you just described to people who join your program, I've got no doubt that you do that in a way that makes it safe for you as a neurodivergent learner. It makes it safe for someone joining your community, and makes it safe for those in the community who might be watching this interaction. To feel like, oh, this is a space where I can be vulnerable, and I can let my guard down a little bit, and I can share my training videos, and I can share my struggles, and I can share my human things.

So by saying, look, I am someone who talks straight shooter, or I talk directly, I don't mean to influence, I don't mean any insults, I don't mean to disregard how that might land with you. That's not my intention. My intention is to help you grow your training skills. So that's that kind of contrasting, I think that is powerful. 

And that, and, and so I think there is that difference over people who lean on, I am from this community and therefore I'm not going to, I'm just going to like lean on that, therefore it doesn't matter what I do now. It's, it's a nuance and I'm struggling to describe it and, and I think it comes from personal experiences where I've like been like, no, that is not okay.

[00:54:39] Emily: Yes, yes. It is, it is really hard to, to strike that balance between acknowledging differences in our neurotypes, differences in our cultural background, differences in our communication styles, and still remaining accountable for our behavior. And, and we see, and it's the same thing for job performance, and chronic illness. That, like there are many times when I have not been able to, do my job or carry my weight in the way that I should because of my chronic illnesses. And there are times when I've had difficulties in conversations because of my neurotype, and my cultural background. And it's really hard to figure out how much of this just needs accommodation because it's the way I am, and I can't, help it. And how much of it is like, no, I'm still accountable for the things that I do. I'm still accountable for my behavior, even though I am in some ways compromised, or I have additional struggles or I have a, or maybe it's not an additional struggle, but we're just speaking across cultures. That is hard. 

And I think a lot of people miss the mark, but if our, if we create a space in a community where our shared agreement is accountability, and listening when people have tell us that we have caused them harm, and working to repair that relationship with, then even if we do make mistakes, we can still have a restorative conversation where we can restore whatever, the harm happened or whatever loss happened. Instead of just being like, well, that's a you problem, not a me problem. Right? That, that kind of belligerence is, is the thing that doubles down on the harm instead of repairing the harm. So, so yes, I could hear you clearly through what you were saying. And I was just adding some nuance, like you said, to provide that contrast. 

[00:56:28] Ryan: And, and it's appreciated. And when, when you sent your question to me, I, I, I, my mind went to all of the skills that Crucial Conversation teaches us. And that I haven't found that cultural differences, and navigating every con, every situation I've had to navigate through Animal Training Academy have been important once we talk about the hard things.

Now this is, this is I, I have this conversation with you and I have a lot of respect and admiration. Because I can see the skill and, and thought you have on this specific topic, and, and your ability to communicate that better than me, I'm learning from you right now. And I think that when you get in, when, if you're the listener I'll, I'll like me when you get into situations where you've gone, oh, crap, maybe I've offended someone and I really didn't mean to, which, which I thought was in my mind just then, right?

It is an uncomfortable situation to be in. So what does uncomfortable feel like? For me, it's like a tightening of my chest, it's like a clouding of my thoughts, it's like, more shallow breaths. It is indications, it is cues that I'm entering into a crucial conversation, as defined by the book where stakes are high, opinions vary, and emotions run strong, right? and the thing that I've, the thing that I think about when you ask me this question, so like navigating these relationships over the course of Animal Training Academy, and my job is at Animal Training Academy all about relationships. That's all I do all day, every day. As we've built this community and this community relies on trust over time.

And what, like a lot of the time it's just easy, like having a conversation is easy, it's fun. People, we don't want to get into hard conversations, but to build trust over time it really depends on how you navigate it when you start to feel uncomfortable, and I relish opportunities to add deposits into my trust account with someone, and to learn about someone when we can actually have a conversation about something that's hard to talk about.

And I think the skills from Crucial Conversations have not failed me. Like I am, I am such a huge promoter of Crucial Conversations and I know other people say, well, I like this book and I like that book, but whatever works for you is, I think what's most important in terms of that conversation. But for me, I, I remember the first time I did, I had a crew, well it probably wasn't the first time, but I remember like some Crucial Conversations I had as employees, as an employee in a zoo context.

I remember one situation where there was rivalry for a position. All right, and and there was a situation where I interpreted as people were trying to get favor with the boss, right? The end goal being I want this position over you. And in a group context I I was sitting there and an individual whom I interpreted as wanting this position and was like trying to get social cred made a a joke about me that I found quite insulting in a group context where everyone laughed. And I felt horrible and embarrassed. And I felt horrible and embarrassed. And I felt horrible and embarrassed. And this person was really quick witted and I just, I could not compete with that. Not that I wanted to compete with it, but like, I had nothing to say. I just had to sit there and be laughed at.

And so the crucial conversation I had at the time was like we're, we're all here for the same reason, like we both want what's best for the animals, I know you want what's best for the animals, I want what's best for the animals. We've got to work together to achieve this common goal. And I don't mean to say that I don't like you, I don't mean to say, and this is really hard, first of all, this conversation is really hard for me to have, and I brought up the situation, I'm like, I don't mean to say like I don't want to be fun, I don't mean to say like it's not fun to joke about things, but uh, that hurtt me in that context. And I know that's, I know, like we're here for the same thing. I know we want the same thing. And I know, like, and I've got a great relationship with that person still, like we're friends. And, and I think that's the route I took on that conversation, if I'm remembering it correctly. 

But man, that was hard. Like I was terrified of that conversation. My chest was so tight, like my heart was racing because I'd never done that before. But I think those, those skills that Crucial Conversation is teaching us are contrasting as one of them, they, they haven't, they haven't let me down and I've been able to navigate a lot of tricky situations, some of them at the end, one of the questions that I take away from Crucial Conversations and a really important one, is what I want, what do I want from this relationship with this person? There are times where after a set amount of time I've gone, you know what? I, myself is more important right now than this relationship. So I'm just going to have to, to call this, there's, there've been a handful of times where that's happened, but not before considerable effort went in, and, and that's okay.

[01:01:43] Emily: Exactly. Yeah. I call it emotional budgeting. Is, is the relationship that I have with this person such that putting in the amount of time, and emotional energy, and all of the stress recovery afterwards, and completing my stress response cycle, and the way it's going to impact how I can show up for people who I am close with, and I do have relationship with, that was a long sentence with way too many clauses. So I got lost. But my point is like, is this relationship enough to, to absorb the expense of the crucial conversation. And if it's with some rando on the internet, on social media, the answer is almost always no. So I just don't have those conversations on the internet anymore. But, but I do, I do think about that when I'm, having those conversations. And also I remember, how many of those I've had, I pay attention, I should say not remember, but I pay attention to how many of those crucial conversations I've had to have in a short period of time, because like I mentioned before, I get crucial conversation fatigue, I run out of dopamine. If I have to have too many of those conversations in a row, then I'm gonna hit a point where I can't have them. I can't do it anymore, even though I know what I should say, something very different comes out of my mouth. Right? 

And and so, yeah, learning how to kind of budget for that and say, you know what, this is a really important conversation that I want to have with you, and I, I can't show up for you the way that you deserve right now. So let's circle back to this later when I finish. recuperate it a little bit, that's, that's something that I've had to learn to say to people because I'm like, I know if I try to have this conversation now, I'm going to mess it up so bad. 

For me that the, the, the feeling that tells me I'm this is a crucial conversation is a burning in my solar plexus. And you have a tightening in your chest. I think it's an important task to identify your ladder of escalation, just like we have our clients do with their pets. Is like, identify your own ladder of escalation so that you can be aware of your physiological responses, and that can be a cue for you to either put on your crucial conversations cap or ask to reschedule.

[01:03:55] Ryan: Yeah, and, and I think being a cue is really important. And, and so for me, it's a, it's a cue to say, is this a crucial conversation? Is this thing we're about to talk about, are the stakes high? Yes. Are my emotions running strong? Yes. That's why I'm asking these questions. Do opinions vary? Yes. Okay. All right, just acknowledge that what you're about to do is defined as by this book, a crucial conversations. You're either gonna handle this extremely well, or it's gonna be a road crash. So the it, so the, the tightening of the chest cues, asking your crucial conversations questions, or for me it does. The answers that the acknowledgement that it's a crucial conversation, then cues to what the book calls, slow down and start with heart. 

Okay, so, it can be hard to do this in real time. And that's a skill that I think is going to take a lifetime to build. For me, even after practicing all of this and having, multiple Crucial Conversations, and when I say practicing it and having multiple crucial conversations, what I mean is, very intentionally and specifically implementing the tools as they are described in the book, well, my interpretation of as they are described, I'm sure, I'm sure varied from it. 

To starting with heart says, what I want for this relationship? What do I want for myself? What do I want for the other person? What don't I want for the relationship? And I've added one, thank you Stuart Hoffman, who's a member of Animal Training Academy, how will the other person, what will the other person think that I want if I have this conversation? So that's what slow down and starting with heart means, and it means saying those things out loud. 

It means, so for example, When I, earlier in this conversation, thought, oh, I've worded this badly. And my chest got a little bit tight.

We can go, are stakes high? Yeah, they are high. They're very high, because if you are a neurodivergent, or if you're a person who really actually struggles with reading social cues, then I don't want to offend you, and I don't want you to feel like you don't belong in this conversation with us. So the stakes are high.

Are our emotions running high? If I've noticed that, the answer is yes. 

Do opinions vary? In this case, they didn't, like, we were, I described something poorly. And we've got a great relationship, Emily, where we can openly and, and, discuss things and, have conversations about hard things. So it wasn't a crucial conversation.

I didn't need to go further, but that's how I'd operate in that space.

[01:06:30] Emily: There's one thing that you said that I that kind of like sent like fireworks off in my brain, which is, we you know, we actually weren't disagreeing that I was just providing some extra nuance. And I had this immediate thought like man the more of these crucial conversations I have, the more I realized that it's actually pretty rare when the people that I have these conversations with, that we actually do disagree. Most of the time, when we have these conversations and we invest in the time, we dig down, and we dig down, and we dig down, we find that we do agree. We're either just defining our terms differently, or there are these dialectics, these seemingly opposing or mutually exclusive truths that actually don't oppose each other when you pull apart those nuances. And so, and, and that may be a selection bias of the people that I choose to have crucial conversations with. 

But I find that to be so often the case that there just aren't very many times that we ultimately have to agree to disagree because most of the time we find out we absolutely do agree, we just had different perspectives or, or one of us had more information about something than the other one did, or they're like I said, we're defining our terms differently. And I think that that is to me, such a important and maybe even sobering, but also empowering and encouraging thing to think about. That most of the time the conflict isn't real, it's just an issue of communication, that's just something that I think a lot about.

[01:08:03] Ryan: Yeah. And I can think of a handful, like literally probably on one hand, the times where there's actually been a difference of opinion. And that, and I can only really think of one time where I, that, that difference of opinion wasn't resolved, but that didn't end the relationship. But it did, it did get to the point where we just had to say, look, this is, and, and, and for me, it's do I want to invest in this anymore? It's if I, if I invest in a conversation, I, they, they take time, what could I be doing instead of having this conversation right now?

Could I be spending time with my kids? If a conversation is going to drag out for four hours, the answer is, yeah, I could. And then it's not only could I be spending time with my kids right now, like the emotional drain of that means that when I now leave this conversation and sit in front of my child, I might be physically there, but my mind is distracted with everything that's just happened. 

And so now I just said the opportunity cost makes me at times go, okay, the opinion, the opinions are varying and I'm calling it, but I can only, I can really only think of one situation. And even in that situation, I would say the withdrawals from the trust account, and I'm going to apologize in the interest of time, not describe what I mean when I say trust account, you can Google Susan Friedman and Steve Martin's great article called The Power of Trust. But even though withdrawal from the trust accounts have occurred. We're not bankrupt, there is still a relationship there.

[01:09:42] Emily: Yes. And we can, we can link to that in the show notes. So you don't have to explain it because it will be available for people who listened to this episode. But yeah, that's, that's why it is budgeting, right? Because your resources are finite, your cognitive resources, your emotional resources, your time, all of that is finite and you have to think very hard about like, if I spend my resources on this conversation, will I still have enough resources left over to really show up for my family, my students, my clients, my close friends in the way that they deserve? Right? And if the answer is no, then you're misspending your budget, right? 

And so, yeah, I think that's just such an important way to think about those conversations is that, even if there is the potential to come to some kind of resolution, will the effort involved in getting that resolution steal resources from the people that you actually have a responsibility towards. So yeah, that's definitely, so that was a really long, beautiful conversation. Thank you for that, that was a really long way of talking about, just navigating working with people from around the world. I love to hear that it's not really so much about cultural differences as it is about just communication skills in general. My next in that series of questions is what parallels have you noticed between building a community with humans and working with populations of non humans? And what can we learn about human group management from non human group management?

[01:11:16] Ryan: I think that I am going to talk about the the fallout of aversives and how that is mirrored with human learners in a community context, the same as it is with non human learners. So we've got escape avoidance behavior, apathy, over generalized fear, and aggression. So I'm going to focus on those four things.

So, in a community context, now my experience with managing a community is online. So within our membership, we have our members only Facebook group. And when I say my experience of managing it, what I mean is we invest significant resources in that community in terms of time. Currently we have an amazing team and, and that word amazing does not do justice to the two individuals whom currently help me with this really important task, and their growth mindsets, and their skills at communication, paired with their amazing behavior, knowledge and animal training skills. And, and those two people are Belinda Young and Shelly Woods. So, I'm incredibly fortunate to be paired with this team at the moment and who operate, beautifully together and whom I trust. And who often offer me different opinions than the ones I have and question the things that I, that I have. And I know that when I ask some questions, like I, I, I'm looking for and hoping for that difference of opinion to, to help me see where my thinking is maybe flawed and, and maybe what I'm missing out on. So that, to this, this group of people. Daily, we invest two to three hours a day, whether it's me personally in the community or, me expending Animal Training Academy's resources, its finances to, get that physical time in the community.

And so what, what is important in that community is what Belinda and Shelly feel about their roles. What the individual person who's posting a question or sharing something personal or an insight feels. And what the community feels about the interactions that occur in that space. How they're seeing an interaction and thinking, well, what if that was me?

Like, is this, if I shared something safe, like how would I be treated? And, and we hope our members know that they will be treated with kindness and respect regardless of, of what they share. This is actually bringing up memories of other crucial conversations now. When I first got started and the group grew to a size that was starting to become um, more manageable than it had been in the early stages of Animal Training Academy, and we had some challenges in there, we decided to create some guidelines some some rules. We call it the ATA Mindset because I didn't like the word rules, and I didn't want it to have the learning history that people might have with that word rules. And, and so we created the ATA mindset and then we had to moderate that.

And so, in the early days we highlighted for someone when they had done something wrong. Air quotes, when they had, when they maybe interacted in a way that wasn't creating that safe environment or they, they did, they talked about something in the group that was off focus. Now, I think about this a lot.

And I am eager to have conversations with people smarter than I am. To wrap my head around this and understand this more. But one way I think about that is adding something to someone's environment. So, whether it's a comment in a group, or it's a private message, to try and decrease behavior, right? so I think about it as, With the future, the frequency of the behavior in the future, like irrespective, like we're trying to implement, it's not irrespective, it can't be, but like that contingency, we would predict that behavior would decrease, then it would be a positive punishment contingency. And just doing that without realizing what I was doing, because I hadn't generalized my work with animals, non human learners to human learners, and we saw aggression. 

We saw people verbally doing behaviour that we might label as aggressive. Criticizing myself, or my community, and that we weren't good people. Or we saw apathy, suddenly the engagement of an individual member would decrease significantly. They were still there, but they stopped engaging. We saw over generalized fear in our community. We see that all the time. So you, if you're on Facebook and you join in the training academy, and there's multiple reasons that I won't go into now as to why we chose to maintain a Facebook group. But if you've had other experiences in other groups, then you're bringing all of that into Animal Training Academy, and you're generalizing your fear of being vulnerable, in this new space. So, what have we gone over so far? Over generalized fear, escape, and escape avoidance behavior, you might cancel your membership, and we've definitely seen that.

So I saw all of that. fallout, I would say textbook. From the use of adding something to someone's environment with the intention of trying to decrease behavior. Luckily, we caught that immediately. And we, we will we had one of the forehead in the hand moments, and then we and then since then and that was 2017 It's been solely on antecedent arrangement, and positive reinforcement of desired behaviours, while ignoring undesirable behaviours, and shaping, and focusing on individual members, focusing on the group dynamics. So, that's the, that's the similarities I see between those two areas. And, and where, like I said, you put your forehead in your hands because you, you missed that initially.

[01:17:11] Emily: I love that so much. I think it's funny because, obviously I think there is a lot of complexity to human behavior. There's a lot of complexity to non human behavior. And I think it's really important to honor those complexities and be aware of them. And also, it is delightful to see how often we can really just go back to the fundamentals to improve group dynamics and, and to improve like individual experience of every learner in the group or each learner in the group, just by focusing on those fundamentals of antecedent and consequences and what does that look like? 

We take a similar approach. We have a code of conduct. And we have a conversation with people and they violate, violate the code of conduct where we point out like, this is the thing and it's why it causes harm, and this is what it looks like to do that differently. And we've only had twice when we've had to take it past that initial conversation. But what's interesting is we still have relationship with the people, even after there was a parting of ways. So, so we have, so we have a similar approach, with similar outcomes, although there are some, there's some slight differences between how we handle those situations.

[01:18:25] Ryan: The, you made me think that another one is, and, and, and I, I can't think of a last time a relationship was broken for that reason. Like, and, and, and maybe once a year or twice a year, I've actually got to do that now because of the culture is, within our community where we don't see that. As soon as I see it, I very rarely act on it either in terms of reaching out to someone.

I, we, it depends. It depends, but once or twice a year probably I would say at the moment. But another piece is the escape avoidance piece, and there's been multiple times when, because our members are obviously in Animal Training Academy and our community, but our community members are part of other communities. And our community members are part of other communities with other members. So these interactions happen outside of Animal Training Academy. And members will escape Animal Training Academy because of It's like, have an unpleasant experience in your workplace, you might get over generalized fear where you just start to feel that as you approach work in your car, like before you even get there, you feel in your body the impact of the aversives that you are anticipating are coming.

Or escape avoidance behavior where you see that colleague coming towards you at the other side of the path at your zoo, just thinking about zoo context, and you intentionally go the other way to avoid them. So, we see that in our online space as well, if people have unpleasant experiences outside of our community, they might leave our community to avoid what's in our community, even though nothing happens in our community.

[01:20:09] Emily: That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for, for discussing that. I think it is a really, really profound reminder that all learners are subject to the same universal laws of behavior. And it's not a big mystery. There's, there are things that we can do to improve our spaces in really, consistent ways, right?

[01:20:29] Ryan: I want to give credit to Wouter Stellaard, who, was used to work with Natural Encounters and Steve Martin. He has his own company now, I'm sorry, Wouter, I can't remember the name of your organization right now, but he really highlighted for me and drew the similarities between what we do with our animals and what you experience in the workplace. A situation that everyone can relate to. It was so powerful for me. So those two examples of the workplace I used credit goes to Wouter for, for helping me see it.

[01:20:58] Emily: Love that. Yeah. Thank you for crediting him. All right. At the end of every interview, I ask the same set of questions. And the first of those is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[01:21:12] Ryan: I think a big one that I wrote down in preparation for this and it's beautiful that it came up because it wasn't intentional in terms of me talking about it or you bringing it up. I can't remember so that I could bring it up here again, but it did. And that is that I want trainers to know that they're not alone and that we're all in this together to improve the lives of the learners, we work with. Both what you guys do, what we do at Animal Training Academy, we're all working towards the same goal to have our biggest possible positive impact and to be brave, to be courageous, to stick your hand up, to ask questions, to understand rather than judge. And as Susan Friedman and Rick Heister said recently, to move slow and to think fast. Sorry, move slow and to think hard. Move slow, think hard. Hard, not fast. That would be contradictory.

[01:22:02] Emily: It's delightful. It's delightful. All right. What is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or enrichment? Your choice.

[01:22:10] Ryan: That it, that it's okay not to know things and that, but that's hard and that's something that I still work on with myself. That it's just okay not to know things. And I think the coolest thing about where I've got to with Animal Training Academy is just, again, as you said earlier, to realize how little I know, but to now have this network where like, man, there's so many people I want to learn from. And to help me with the challenges that I see with my animals in my own home, even though I'm a professional trainer, I'm just completing my exam for Jennifer Shryock's Family Paws program. And I'm four years in to having a kid, and I know how much that I don't know, so it's okay to not know. 

[01:22:55] Emily: We, we love Family Paws. Shout out to Family Paws. And yes, it is absolutely okay to not know things. My wish for everybody is that they can cultivate, they have the opportunity to cultivate the same kind of excitement that my mother cultivated in me when I discover that I don't know something. Instead of shame or fear, it's like, oh, there's a whole new adventure before me. And I'm sad that so many people did not receive that experience in childhood. And I, I, I hope for everybody that they have the opportunity to feel that way. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[01:23:34] Ryan: Well, we've got a podcast show at Animal Training Academy, over 230 episodes, but I've had, and I'm thinking of an episode now where a guest told me that they had received death threats because they used a specific tool or specific tools. I asked that guest how they felt and they said, dark, very, very dark.

There's a place where I don't want anyone to go, I'm talking about suicide. And and I was really grateful for this particular person to share their story because when people are on social media, and they're adding things to people's environments, comments, etc, to try and get them to decrease behavior, which may or may not be the function, they might just want the social reinforcers they get from people liking and reacting to their comments.

Regardless, those actions have very real implications for the receivers. And we wouldn't do this without non human learners. But some of the stuff that's happening in some of the conversations that I'm seeing, and I'm grateful that this person allowed me to ask them these questions. We're lucky they're still with us. We can't be implementing tools with one species and, and think that the science of our trade doesn't apply to others. It does. It applies to human learners. The science of behavior works the same for all earthlings, and using aversives has fallout. And I just want people to be more aware of that when working with each other.

[01:25:00] Emily: Yeah, I, I, I'm going to add on to that because I absolutely agree with what you're saying. And also I think the reason that that happens, I think there are many reasons that that happens, but I think most commonly the reason that that happens is because there's a balance to be struck when, when harm is happening, that harm needs to be dealt with. Because when we permit harm or we don't we don't work to, to stop harm we are in ways enabling it or, or endorsing it in some ways. And so. We see a lot of times this happens in social justice work when people are new to social justice work, and they see harm happening, they just go way over the top in terms of their hostility in how they respond to and, and try to address harm. 

And I think that is a stage of learning where we go over the top. And then the more you learn, the more how you learn to be effective at stopping harm without egregious hostility, unnecessary hostility. And I see that happening a lot in our field where people get overly zealous and how they respond to, their perception that harm may be happening, whether or not it's actually happening, right? And I'm not saying this to defend that behavior. But I think it has helped me when, when seeing that behavior to learn how to discuss it in a way that acknowledges that, that their feelings are valid, and that their desire to reduce harm is a good thing, and also there are different, more effective ways to go about reducing harm. 

We don't have to, our two options aren't be nice to everybody and including the people who are causing harm and enable harm, or just go super, super violent. Like there, there are more options than those two extremes, it's that's a little bit of a false dichotomy. And so, I'm, I'm putting this out there because I want people to continue to care about working to reduce harm. I want people to continue to have that commitment to that desire, and also it is important to learn more effective ways to do that so that you are not a victim of causing more harm in your attempts to reduce harm. 

So I just had to, I had to acknowledge that because I see that happening over and over again in our field. And, I, I'm sympathetic to the ways in which people miss the mark and also, yeah, they're missing the mark and causing harm by doing that. And, past me did that too, cause I don't think, I don't think it's like, I'm not special, right? Like, like we, we, I think many of us go through that learning process, but, yeah, it's, It is, first, you have to learn to, to assess whether or not harm has actually happened, and then you have to learn better to it. 

[01:27:43] Ryan: Yeah, it's not, disagreeing is not the problem. It's, it's how, it's how we disagree. And I think that the whole point of crucial conversations is to, to never not speak up, but it's how you, how you speak up. Like the point is not to, cause the opposite of being, over aggressive in your communication style, crucial conversations call it silence or violence. So that would be a violent communication style. The opposite is silence, and not saying stuff for something at all. And that is not, not what the aim is. The aim is to, to learn the skills to disagree in a way, and each, I hesitate because each situation is so unique and so nuanced, it really is, you just can't apply these black and white rules to everything. It just does not work. I've tried, it doesn't work. But, generally speaking, to practice handling the conversation in a way that provides safety for all involved, including yourself and including for those who you're talking to.

[01:28:46] Emily: Yes. Absolutely 100%. I, I love that you brought it back to the terms that they use in Crucial Conversations to connect those dots. I think that's beautiful. And yes, absolutely. The, the, the framework that I find really helpful in terms of working with humans is the restorative justice movement. I think it has a lot of, benefit for teaching people how, how to, how to apply those Crucial Conversation skills, in a way that reduces harm all around.

[01:29:15] Ryan: well I just want to say, before you say that, I just want to say how much, how much I value um, and appreciate a couple of things about you, Emily. One is your knowledge and, and the, the thought and the, the, the care that you put into thinking about these topics. And the other thing is your ability to articulate those, and, and speak up and, and share them. And I just wanna say just in, in the process of doing this podcast, I've learned a lot from you today, and, and really appreciated, all of the different contributions you've made, but especially that little last one. Then I just, I just enjoyed your way of delivering that insight and that information. I, I, I'm not sure if I can pinpoint exactly over and above what I've just shared, what that was, but it was done really well, and I learned a lot just in the last couple of minutes.

[01:30:03] Emily: I appreciate that. That is very kind of you. And also that reminds me that one of the things that I wanted to tell you on in this episode that I forgot to because we got wrapped up in our conversation, is how so let me start over. I, everything you said to me back at you, I feel like I learned from you every time I speak to you and you, you just model this kind of calm, solid, steady dedication to compassion and, and creating the community and all of those things. But like, every time I talk to you, the thing that strikes me is that you are so good seeing a person and finding the things that you value about them, and saying it to them and articulating it so well. 

And when Allie and I were on your podcast last time, when we finished and the episode was done, Allie was like, I have never felt so seen. And I was like, yes, welcome to talking to Ryan because that's what he does is like he sees people and he calls out the things that he values, and it is such a touching and validating and encouraging experience. And, and you just do it every time you blow my mind every time. So, thank you so much for that kindness. And I feel so seen. 

[01:31:17] Ryan: Is, that is such a huge compliment and one that I think I might, thank you for telling me that, thank you for sharing that I'm not going to forget that, what you just said. I never thought about it like that before. 

[01:31:28] Emily: It's true. Every time I talk to you.

[01:31:30] Ryan: I mean, if you think about training our non human learners, like, what are we doing with the clicker in our hand? We're looking for, often we reinforce more than we intend to, but what we're looking for often is the individual, very specific behaviour, especially when we're shaping, that we want to reinforce and we want to see more of. So, when you're giving feedback to someone, you're like, in my mind, like, that specificity is, I don't even want to say that it's often missed because I haven't really thought about it well to, like, say that right now, but I just think that that is a piece from our training of non human learners that we can bring over here to give feedback.

Thank you, wannabe. really specific as best as you can. What specific behavior do you want to see in Emily maintained as they show increased in the future? Like, and in yourself and thinking about that for yourself as well, what specifically did you do that you like? And that specificity piece, I think it's, it's, it's not an intentional thing I do. It just, I think it flows from animal training.

[01:32:33] Emily: Right, I think that it's you do it extraordinarily well and it speaks to your fluency at these skills. So yes, because that's fluency is when it just comes second nature to you and you don't even realize that you're doing it, right. Like it's hard to explain to other people what you're doing because it comes second nature to you. and and so I think that's what we're seeing here is that you were just so fluent at that, that you don't even realize you're doing it, but you are. And we, we, we we realize that we feel it. 

[01:33:02] Ryan: Amazing. Thank you so much. 

[01:33:04] Emily: All right, what are you currently working on? If people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you?

[01:33:10] Ryan: So, we are dedicated to helping trainers and, and they saw others who want to grow their animal training knowledge, and what flows from growing your animal training knowledge is skill and confidence. So that is our game. That is what we do. We know, again, as just said, that there is no black and white tools and resources that we can apply.

There is and there isn't, but every situation, every single situation is so nuanced. Each individual learner that there's just so many opportunities to get stuck and hit rough patches and be left there scratching your head like I was with Reg the Wedge, all of those years ago. So that that's why we exist really is to help trainers build their skill, knowledge and confidence so that they can bust through when they're getting stuck and they're getting hitting rough patches. 

I know firsthand what that feels like to be isolated, to be confused, to not know what you're going to do next, or how to move forward. Stressful, can be embarrassing. You know, it's embarrassing to like have Your learners doing specific, learners in your care doing specific behaviors and then for whatever reasons, and then to admit that to other trainers. Going out to people's houses and training their animals and then coming home and your animals are like, your dog's on the table, or they're jumping up at your visitors, or whatever it is. Like, it's, there's so many emotions involved with being a trainer. I feel like we're, like Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. And he's on his way to blowing up the Death Star, and all he's thinking is like, am I good enough to be a Jedi? 

Like, we're out there like training dogs, and we're often just like, Am I actually good enough to be a dog trainer? Like, do I know enough? Am I skilled enough? And, and I want to say that some people, you have to build your knowledge and skills. We don't want people going out there just not thinking about that, obviously, but we're human and we're trying to have this huge positive impact on, on our clients, on the animals, on our communities and there's a lot to navigate. So, that, that's our game at the moment. That's what we do, very similar to what you guys do. We have two peas in the same pod. And you can find us at a t a member. com 

And we've got podcasts and blogs and all of the normal things over there. In a book club. Yeah, we've read both of your guys books and and on that note, I just want to say Like, you know when I say earlier that there are people in the industry who I go oh my god, I want to learn from, like you, your, your organization is right up there for me. Like I'm very interested in diving in and doing your resources.

We've read your books in book club Allie and Emily your canine Enrichment from the root for the Real World, then the workbook and I haven't even had to like, you read, you read a book like your workbook and you've got all of your protocol is not the right word, but you've got your tools, and you've got your sheets, at the back and you've got to fill them out and you've, then you've got to go through like, is there agency, is there not agency, and all of these questions and to come up with your intervention design.

Like you read, you read a book like your workbook and you're like, wow, like, but then you've got to like implement it, so, I'm at the stage where I've like read it, and I'm already like, I'm already, Emily, when I have clients I'm already going, okay, what are your approximations going to be?

You've got to read this book. Like, and I'm, I'm nowhere near fluency in terms of implementing it, but like, it is at the top of my list of recommendations that I'm giving to people. I just recently had a client who's KPA Certified and wants to start her own business and has got some issues with their learner and like, the number one thing I said to them was you've got to read this book. You've got to read this book. So, I, I, you guys are one of the people that I'm desperate to learn from, but yeah, I blame kids for not having done that yet.

[01:37:17] Emily: I appreciate that. I appreciate the kind words. I, I think, obviously Allie and I see the world through this enrichment framework. We, we learned about enrichment from the very beginning. I learned about enrichment from Scott Eccles before I even started learning about behavior from Susan Friedman, so I came into behavior through that enrichment lens. And, and I, I also, even though I, I obviously love seeing behavior through an enrichment lens, and I think about a behavior change through the enrichment framework that we've, we've written about, I also feel like it's really important for me to say two things about that.

One is that we didn't, we didn't invent this, it's just a modified version of the Spider framework, which was created for zoos. And we just tweaked that a little bit to make it more applicable to the, the, the pet community, the, the companion animal community. The other thing I feel I need to say about it is it's not the only way to be really good and successful at behavior change. I hope that nobody feels like if they're not fluent at the enrichment framework, they're not good enough. I think the reason that we teach it to people is because for us, it is the easiest way that we are aware of to really look at the whole picture to look at the animal in the context of their environment, of their relationships, of their history, and be really systematic and efficient at effectively really addressing the root causes of those behavior.

And I know root causes can be a tricky conversation that we can have at some other time. But, the reason I say that is because. I think you are spectacular at what you do with, or without having fluency in our enrichment framework. I don't think you need to be fluent at what we do in order to be just absolutely fluent at what you do. 

[01:39:03] Ryan: But when I, when I started Animal Training Academy, I was, I was in a different city and, and my friend from high school, really motivated me and pushed me like, he's got a very successful business and he's, he's like, you've got to like share your knowledge, you have a lot of knowledge, like, let's package it and sell it.

And like, you don't have to work in the zoo if you don't want it. And I was moving back to Wellington, I didn't know what I was going to do and I was going to go back to university and he's like, don't do that. I'm not saying that this is advice for everyone at all. But he's like, don't do that.

I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, man, like all of that information that you get from your degree, you can find online for free. Like use that money and grow your business, and I, for me personally, I'm not saying this is generic advice, but for me personally, that was one of the best things that someone told me.

And so, what I love about your book is that I could get, I could go to the Spider website and I could go and read all of his other enrichment stuff, but where there's value, I think, is when stuff is packaged in a digestible way. That is easy, and, and it can be applied. And so that's what I think you have done with your two books.

And so I could go and learn from it in all other sources, but the reason I want to learn from you is because of your skill at disseminating information. And you do so much in that book of prefacing like, we know how hard this is for the owner, this has to work for the owner as much, you've, you've, you've used really safe language in there that makes me go, oh, these are teachers I want to learn from.

It's not just the information, it's like, these are teachers that I know that I would like to learn from who understand. what it is to, to make people feel safe and integrate great teaching environment. So that's, it's, it's more than just the content, I think.

[01:40:51] Emily: Well, thank you. And it goes both ways. Every time I talk to you, I'm like, I want to learn more from Ryan. So maybe we can just schedule some times to just like hang out and learn from each other. Well, thank you so much, Ryan. It has been pleasure. I really appreciate you. And it's been wonderful to get to talk to you today. 

[01:41:08] Ryan: Thank you and to protect my own mental health I've been saying no to most opportunities for years because I run ATA, and I've got two kids and and I just was burning out because I was trying to do too many things, but I could not say no to being on this podcast. And it's one of the best ones I've done in ages so thank you very much for inviting me it was an absolute honor to be 

[01:41:28] Allie: Okay, what did I tell you? Ryan models boundless compassion, a tireless growth mindset, and an extraordinary ability to see the good in people and point it out to them in a way that makes them feel so seen. I absolutely love every time that we get to speak with him. Next week, we'll be talking about how to identify your own ladder of escalation.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.