#100 - Laura van Dernoot Lipsky: Trauma Stewardship for Pet Professionals

In this week's interview episode, we're joined by Laura van Dernoot Lipsky, the founder of the Trauma Stewardship Institute and author of 'Trauma Stewardship' and 'The Age of Overwhelm'.

In this episode, Emily and Laura discuss the importance of trauma stewardship and harm reduction. Laura shares insights on reframing self-care, the interconnectedness of our lives, and the significance of systemic approaches in improving the quality of life for pets, their people, and the professionals who support them. Listeners will learn about recognizing signs of burnout, the impact of disenfranchised professions, and fostering compassionate accountability within communities.

Join us as we explore these crucial topics and how to enhance well-being in our professional and personal lives.

You can find the full episode show notes here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Laura: So it's very important to me, at least when I do this work, I don't ever want people leaving my presence, feeling like they've got this massive to do list. I don't want it to diluted down to this individual, like turn your frowns upside down, everybody. I'm not taking away our accountability or responsibility.

I mean, you know, we're all adults who are doing this, even if we're doing this in high school or college, we're young adults, but, you know, we're making choices to do this. And so I never want to take away our own accountability and responsibility. And also, I really think it can't be said enough how important it is that we look at the structurally and systemically.

[00:00:35] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:52] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:00:54] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Laura van Dernoot Lipsky. Laura van Dernoot Lipsky is the founder and director of the Trauma Stewardship Institute and author of Trauma Stewardship and the Age of Overwhelm. She is the host of the podcast Future Tripping, which is dedicated to conversations about overwhelm.

Widely recognized as a pioneer in the field of trauma exposure, she has worked nationally and internationally for more than three decades. Much of her work is being invited to assist in the aftermath of community catastrophes, whether those are fatal storms or mass shootings.

Simultaneously, she has long been active in community organizing and movements for social and environmental justice, and has taught on issues surrounding systematic oppression, structural supremacy, and liberation theory. Laura is on the advisory board of Z Girls, an organization that supports young girls in sports. She is a founding member of the International Transformation Resilience Network, which supports the development of capacity to address change. Laura also served as an associate producer of the award winning film, A Lot Like You, and was given a Yo Mama Award in recognition of her work as a community activist mother.

She is also on Instagram, at futuretrippingwithlaura. Y'all, I am so stoked that we got Laura for the podcast. I have been reading Trauma Stewardship for quite a while because it attacks me at every turn, so I need long breaks in between readings, but so far it has been so helpful for me. This episode's a bit shorter than normal due to some last minute schedule changes, but trust me, it is worth every single second.

In this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Laura talk about reframing self care as harm reduction, how to navigate a disenfranchised profession, finding the balance between toxic positivity and social justice bullying, and how we need to listen to our elders. Alright, here it is, today's episode, Laura van Dernoot Lipsky, Trauma Stewardship for Pet Professionals. There is a content warning in today's episode with a mention of suicide. 

[00:03:15] Emily: Okay. So, tell us your name, your pronouns and your pets.

[00:03:20] Laura: My name is Laura van Dernoot Lipsky Lipsky, she, her, and our current pet is Zealand, black Lab.

[00:03:27] Emily: Cute Zealand. I love that. Is it spelled like New Zealand? 

[00:03:31] Laura: It is, yeah. Mostly we call him Z, but yes.

[00:03:34] Emily: Delightful. All right. Well, tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:38] Laura: Oof, there's a short and a long answer to that. But essentially, I started doing trauma work formally when I was around 18 and started spending the night in shelters for folks who didn't have houses at the time. And I was in a community, it was in college where it was small enough that once you started doing that, then there was domestic violence work, then there was working with kids who were abused, and there was sex trafficking, it just like, started cascading and that's how I started doing it. I mean, It definitely was a result of trauma mastery and, trying to reconcile things, but I didn't really know that at the time. And then, I did primary trauma work for a long time, and then the way I started doing vicarious trauma work, and looking at the long term impact of being exposed to hard things um, humans, other living beings, ecologically, the planet, all of that was because I just started losing my own mind. So, then really started getting interested in vicarious trauma.

[00:04:39] Emily: Yeah. And then you wrote Trauma Stewardship, which I have to say is one of the most influential books in my life, and, and that's not hyperbole. You called me out from the very first sentence in the introduction, where your story about your experience on the cliff. It was one of those moments that reminded me that learning is cyclical. Because I thought I had figured out how to prevent burnout and compassion fatigue. And I thought I knew how to do self care, and have a work life balance, and all that stuff. And to some extent I had, I was certainly better at it than the last time I thought I had it all figured out, which was certainly better than the time before that, and so on.

But. that story that you told in the introduction was very much an it me moment. And and so it was the signal, like, oh, no, you have more work to do in this area there. You're not done. And so I've been recommending your book to everyone in my profession ever since then, because I feel like everybody I talk to in my profession is in the same boat in that they think they have self care figured out, or they think they have compassion fatigue figured out, or they like are aware that burnout is a thing, and they, they kind of sort of know that they should be present, preventing it or how to prevent it.

But then when they talk about their learning goals, and their pain points, and the, the opportunities for professional development, it often indicates that they too could benefit from revisiting these topics. So, that's really where we want to start with our, our discussion today, what advice do you have for people who already have some tools in their toolbox for preventing burnout and compassion fatigue? And what are some signs that they can look for to indicate that maybe it's time to expand their toolbox and their skill sets?

[00:06:24] Laura: Well, thank you for your very, very kind and generous words. Um, I think, I never, when I do this work, I never talk about it in terms of self care and, and I say that with respect, but one of the reasons for that is because I really believe that the places we work, the systems, structures, where we're doing this work have a moral mandate and an ethical obligation to create sustainable environments where we are doing this work.

And I think that, for any of us who believe that oppression, structural oppression, systematic oppression, structural supremacy is contributing to so much of the harm that we're then tending to, both with humans, other living beings, and the planet, I just believe you cannot be dismantling that oppression out in the community and then replicating it in the places we're working in the movements within which we're working.

So it's very important to me, at least when I do this work, I don't ever want people leaving my presence, feeling like they've got this massive to do list. I don't want it to diluted down to this individual, like turn your frowns upside down, everybody. I'm not taking away our accountability or responsibility.

I mean, you know, we're all adults who are doing this, even if we're doing this in high school or college, we're young adults, but, you know, we're making choices to do this. And so I never want to take away our own accountability and responsibility. And also, I really think it can't be said enough how important it is that we look at the structurally and systemically.

So given that, one of the very important pieces for me is helping folks understand, at least for me, it's not an option as we do this work that harm comes to us. And so if it feels like it's not sustainable, if it feels like any harm is coming to us, that to me is a really, really important distinction. It's one thing, you know, you're tired now and then you're depleted now and then. Now and then you want a long weekend, whatever, that's very different than. If you really start noticing, like you can't get untired, or you start noticing you've lost your sense of humor, or you start noticing you're super cynical, or as one of my colleagues said, I love my work, and I hate the person I've become. You just start noticing you have negativity bias that you're criticizing everybody all the time, criticizing everything all the time.

So we have, and I know you'll link to our website, but on our website, there's this kind of graphic that we enhance, since it was in the book that you mentioned Trauma Stewardship, where it shows like some of the ways you might know that you're being impacted. And that's everything from, just feeling numb, feeling dissociated, noticing physical thing, you're having headaches all the time, your systems inflamed all the time to say nothing of our own, depression, our own anxiety, our own PTC, all of that. And, you know, it's also just not being present. It's also losing a sense of awe. It's, it's also, addictions, even if that's like caffeine, not like six gin and tonics a night, but like, just like being fueled by Red Bull.

So really looking at if harm is happening to us. And, and so, that's one way, per your question in terms of knowing you need to expand. It's just like, it's just to me, it's not an option that harm happens to us. And the 1st place harm is going to happen is not how we show up for our jobs, or the causes we're a part of. The 1st place harm is going to happen is our own physical self and our own emotions, our own mental health. 2nd place you notice harm is in your personal relationships, right? You just become that person. Like, nobody wants to hang out with anymore. You become the person where, decision fatigue, if you're blessed enough to have anybody ask you what you want for dinner, what you want to do this weekend, you're just like, why do I have to decide everything. Or you just become the person who's like, too tired to do anything in your personal life.

And, and then the 3rd place we see harm usually is in our colleague relationships where we can still be doing incredible work, but we talk shit about each other. We gossip about each other, whatever you just, we treat each other as colleagues in a way that's not awesome. And then, by the time anybody feels like, wow, I don't have what it takes to do my work, like, in the way I want it, then I usually think about it as, like, all these indicators leading up to that.

[00:10:21] Emily: Thank you for that. I, I love that you talked about, like, the way to, to, to recognize it is that, like, our pole star is harm reduction. And if we're harming ourselves, then we're not reaching our goal. That, that is a beautiful framework to operate within. I really appreciate that. Along those veins, one of the things that I've learned in my journey is about disenfranchised grief. And we had somebody on the podcast last season, or season before last talking about disenfranchised grief. And I recognize that like our, my profession actually has some unique challenges in that it's not just disenfranchised grief, but it's really in a disenfranchised profession. 

And so what I mean by that is that, like, we're not just dealing with the grief of the trauma, and the heartbreak, and the pain of the animals in our care, and the, and the humans who are taking care of those animals, their, their trauma, their pain, their grief which already people tend not to take seriously in our society.

But we're doing so within a profession that people in our society also don't take seriously. Like veterinarians are often demeaned as being quote unquote, not real doctors. And animal behavior professionals are likewise thought of as lesser than quote unquote, real mental health professionals, or real teachers, or real coaches, or whatever.

And I think part that is partially exacerbated by the fact that it is an unregulated industry. So the garbage that most professions grapple with uh, is kind of extra for us. We've got kind of this next level layer of, of, of junk because there's no standard practices there, it's really hard to come to some consensus about what this profession should look like, what good looks like within the profession.

And then on top of that, we also get a lot of the same sort of flack that you know, artists get, or people in any of the artistic, or artisanal fields get, which is that people expect us to do our labor for free because, if you really cared about animals, you would do this for free because you're passionate about it.

Or like what, if you do this for free, it'll give you exposure. We get a lot of that as well. So it becomes this kind of triple whammy of like soul sucking disenfranchisement. So, what are some things that we can do to protect ourselves as we navigate these professional landmines?

[00:12:43] Laura: Yeah, I really appreciate all your sharing there. And I think that that, exactly as you're saying that one of the things that we know to be true with vicarious trauma is part of what contributes to it, while we never want to get into a competition of suffering or pain, obviously, one of the things that we look at in terms of what contributes to how impacted we might be is how society views the work we're doing, and how society views who we're serving.

And so, that's just building on what you're saying that, there are professions in our society and around the world that when you say what you do, people are really psyched, people are like, people are donating to your cause, people care about it a lot, you're held in high regard, the folks you're serving, the animals, the planet, whatever it is, your causes are held in high regard, and that matters a lot. Because the work can still be hard, things can be painful, things can be traumatic, and to your point, you're not having to navigate all these other headwinds. And then there's professions where that's not like that, that never happens. It's not broad brush, but child protective service workers are generally not really eager at a barbecue, or at a cocktail party to say what they do.

I think similarly, humane society workers. Similarly, many professions where you're just like, you're just not, you're just going to make up what you do, or you just don't talk about it. And again, so it's not like, oh, firefighters have it so easy. And like, what about all these other people?

It's not it's not we don't want to be reductive with it. I do think it's very important to look at it in terms of the headwinds that we're facing, though, because that matters in terms of how it all adds up. It matters. I worked with a public defender who said, what I didn't expect is that in addition to everything I was bearing witness to and seeing, I didn't expect that I also wouldn't be getting support for the work I was doing. Both from the system you're in as opposed with other people as well. And so that matters because it's just like, all contributing to the ecosystem. 

So that's one piece that we look at that you're bringing up. Also, to your point, the other piece that we look at in terms of how impacted folks are with vicarious trauma is to what degree who you are and what you do have become collapsed into one. This is not bad or good. This is not right or wrong. And also it does have really significant impact. So if you show up for your job, whatever that is, and you have a sense of like, look, I'm showing up. I'm going to do the best I can. It's not like this is who I am or anything. It's not like this is my identity, but I'm showing up going to bring my A game, I care a lot. That's really different. 

Then a lot of folks in, the field you're working in, the related fields you're working in and many other fields where folks, you can't even talk about the work you're doing without like clenching your jaw. You feel like a bone marrow surge. People are getting like tattoos of their animals on their body, like that's a very, very, very different experience.

And again, it's not bad or good, right or wrong. Like if you, if you have that level of passion, then what you might be able to bring to your work can be just off the charts in terms of how you're showing up, and you obviously can imagine your vulnerability to being impacted is going to be that much greater.

And, if this isn't who you are, you're you don't have any bumper stickers on your bike, or car about this, then, your A game might be a little bit different, your passion is going to be different, but you also can imagine you might sustain a lot longer in it. So, I think that that is something to really pay attention to, those two things.

And the other thing I would say in terms of what you're talking about is this idea that I brought up at the beginning of trauma mastery that, for sure there's some people who show up doing work, you know, in your field, working with animals, working with related climate things, all that, who just, they stumbled their way into it.

They were a barista, and then they were waiting tables, and then they were selling real estate, and one thing led to another, now they're doing this, but a lot of people who do the work you do are doing it because they're trying to reconcile something from back in the day, they're trying to heal in some way, they're trying to make something right in some way, and that's what we call trauma mastery.

And again, not bad or good, not right or wrong, but if you're doing the work you're doing, because something horrific had happened back in the day to an animal, you loved, or you bore witness in a way, or whatever it is, there's nothing inherently healing about doing this work. And so, to your point, part of what happens, then, is you can find yourself, like, looking around at your colleagues and like, the vast majority of your colleagues have their own trauma histories that they're trying to reconcile. And then you're in this field, which is really hard. And then, like you said, very disenfranchised piece. You can imagine that, that can just get so unbearable so quickly. So, I think people having, like, a macro view of that, I think is very, very important, and then just understanding that. There are jobs, and there are careers, and there are ways that we do this work that sometimes it's just not feasible to do it, like, long term, right? 

There's something to be said, like, we rotate crops, there's something to be said for just, like being able to, like, have a plan B and do different things in our lives and expose ourselves in different ways, just in terms of the sustainability, like, you just can't sometimes, it's just, you've got to rotate through, to actually be really wise and realistic about how long something is going to sustain.

[00:18:05] Emily: So, my follow up question to that then is how do you tell when it's time to rotate through and come back again? Because that has happened to me at several points in my life, right? Where I went, tried to do something else, or I went to do something else and I got drawn back into the field, and, and I don't know that I necessarily did it in the healthiest way. So, what would that look like to you to be for, for like intentional, mindful decision making of like, I need to let this crop fallow, and go cultivate this crop now for a little while. What does that look like?

[00:18:40] Laura: I think part of it is, again, going back to the do no harm. It's for me a really big shift. I was so cocky, and so arrogant, and so self righteous, and I was doing God's work. And I just was like, there was so many years where even though I was lucky in that people were communicating to me that they were worried about me, because a lot of times we get very isolated.

I just was my level of cockiness, arrogance, so frank, you know I was doing God's work, you could step up and help me or you could step off. But I just was not there was I was not hearing people on how concerned they were and what they were seeing in me. And I think that part of what is so important, first of all, is to make sure we don't get isolated. And not just like you're in your apartment, it's just you and your apartment isolate, but like, you, and me, and like six of our colleagues could, we could all be like living together and like thinking we're not isolated, but we're just all on the same page all the time, and really, really isolated, right. So, I think part of it is making sure that you're like not losing touch with like, a reality of how you're actually doing, and that means I think it doesn't have to be like a huge you know like bench around you. But having a deep enough bench about people who care you care about you and know, know you who you have some trust in. Even if it's one or two people who can like weigh in like hey, you seem to be like struggling, you seem to be not doing so well, right? Because human, there's like every research for what I mean, this is just like a known thing that like, we like self supporting human self, like self reporting is often, we're not often the most insightful, and self aware. So, I think that's 1 thing I would say.

I think the other piece connected to that do no harm is for me, I had to really shift from feeling entitled to do the work, even though it was so committed, so dedicated, let's let's assume hopefully that I was doing some good things during that time when I was really struggling. But I really had to shift from feeling entitled to do the work to proving to myself, I knew it was an honor to do the work, I knew it was a privilege to do the work, but I really had to shift to communicating with myself that I had to prove and demonstrate that I had what it took to be able to bring my a game to the work while also not doing any harm. Again to myself, in my personal life, with my colleagues, and then ultimately at work And that was a very big shift from just feeling like if I care enough and i'm devoted enough I'm dedicated enough I'm, just going to do this because there's ever present need for the work. As opposed to shifting like hang on maybe things will get much better in the world, but for now, it looks like there's always going to be need for the work we're doing.

And so that kind of, like, never enough, never enough scarcity is just so, that's, it's not tenable. So, I really had to shift from, like, wait, wait, wait. If I believe that oppression is causing so much this, and I believe you can't dismantle that, and replicate that here, and also, if you think about Chief Seattle's Web of Life, King's Single Garment of Destiny, you can't be tending to all these parts of the web out there, and just completely destroy your immediate part of the web, like the reality of interbeing is it's all connected.

So, I think part of it is that paradigm shift. And then folks being able to really have honest conversations with themselves like every day as a part of a contemplative practice, even if it's while you're walking the dog, or making your smoothie, or commuting or whatever it is. But being able to say, like, can I do the work I want to do and simultaneously make sure my health is shored up, make sure my mental health is shored up, make sure that my personal relationships, I'm tending to them, and make sure that like, I'm not a nightmare colleague, that I'm a supportive colleague, that I'm not talking trash about people, I'm not doing that. Right? Because most of us are going to like, hang on in terms of showing up and bringing our best self to the job. 

But, if you, I'm not, and I'm not talking, respectfully, I'm not talking about like a Western medical doctor weighing in here. I'm talking about like, what would your acupuncturist say? Like, would your acupuncturist say your adrenal system is in good enough shape for you to like, keep working 40, 50, 60 hours a week? Right? So kind of having some, like, checks in that regard of like, wait, it's got to shift from, is, are we, is the work, are we tending to the work in the way we need to tend to the work?

Is that's it's just, it's like, never ending. And instead shifting to, right speech, right conduct, right action. This is not about perfection at all. This is just like, is it am I doing any harm to my health? Am I doing any harm in my personal life? Am I doing any harm with my colleagues to the movement?

And going that direction as opposed to like, there's all this work, there's all this work, there's all of this work. We're trying to keep up. And then, like, let's just see how long we can do this before we, like, die in the service of this. And I'm not being hyperbolic about that, right? A lot of the work I do is getting called in very, very, very unfortunately, right? When very bad things happen and some of that includes our colleagues dying by suicide. And some of that includes our colleagues being horrible to each other. And some of that includes, folks dying, not by suicide and by other health things that, folks would say are directly related to overwhelm.

[00:23:44] Emily: That is so important. And, and you said so many things that I want to like pull out, but one of the things that I think. Is really important is that component of, of work with colleagues and I, and I have to say in defense of my profession. It really, there are really pockets of, of communities in the profession where we really do genuinely support each other and where kindness is the baseline, and I could gush about that for a very long time. 

But our industry is in other ways, a microcosm of that larger societal issue that, that you're talking about. Which is that, it's, it's, which is centered around how we think about respond to and handle harm, right? So on one hand, there's a large contingent of people in this field, as in the larger society, who operate within the sort of toxic positivity framework, where it's bad to ever make anyone uncomfortable or call anyone out. And if you bring up the harm that anybody is causing, there's a lot of like, performative victimhood. And that, that contingent tends to conflate inclusivity with enabling, where they support and platform people who are actively causing harm instead of addressing the harm because everybody deserves kindness. And there's kind of a mantra that I hear a lot in, from that side of our profession. That's, that says, like, we should all be supporting each other, which usually actually means you should support us no matter what we do, or who we ourselves are actively depriving of support, right? 

But then, on the other hand, there are, for lack of a better term, these, these social justice bullies who are just constantly looking for reasons to jump down everyone else's throats for even the tiniest perceived infractions, and they end up injuring their own cause because they make it almost impossible to have a productive, constructive conversation about practical ways to move forward, to grow as a community, to reduce harm and increase welfare and well being, and to affect change in realistic approximations.

And I have been grappling with this for a lot over the years. Because it feels like I'm walking a tightrope in a field of landmines, right? Like you take one misstep in one direction or the other, and suddenly, the pearl clutching is, is, epic. Olympian. So, so what are your thoughts about how we can soften those two extreme positions, and just create a community culture of compassionate accountability?

[00:26:25] Laura: Yeah, I really, really, really appreciate what you're sharing there. And, again, I want to start by saying, I started doing this work formally when I was 18, and I'm 55, so I don't know that anybody was more cocky, arrogant, and self righteous than I was back in the day doing this. And so, I just want to like, like, I very confident I was incredibly insufferable for years as I was doing this. Also, just, I exhausted myself in terms of just like, oh my God, like, how long can you be that cocky, that arrogant, that self righteous for? And it, it was harmful. It was harmful on a lot of levels.

I think that what we know to be true human kind wise, is that it is so much easier to be critical of others. And be up in other people's business, and like critique everything. And again, that negativity bias we talk about. If you can just go through life having no accountability, no responsibility, like, in that way, and just, like, be criticizing everybody, everything all the time, that that's a pretty seductive wave to ride.

Again, is there integrity in there? No. Is it ethical? No. Is it, like I said, exhausting? Yes. Right. But I know what it's like to be really seduced by that, and have been on that wave. I think part of what is really treacherous now, to your point, is that with social media, and with the means of communication now, I think the amount of harm that people can do, if folks don't have insight and awareness and kind of ethics, and an ethical frame surrounding that is extraordinary, right? And so, I think that is something that is really, really important to look at. And I think it's important to look at from a very young age, because I think, given how damaging social media and related platforms are, and how early people are on it, and then the tailwinds that some folks have with that. That you can find folks at a pretty young age, middle school, high school, certainly after high school, starting to do some really significant harm, if they don't have community around them, to your point, that knows how to help folks have accountability, and responsibility, and understand what like ethical movement building looks like. My colleague Connie Burke, who I had the privilege of writing trauma stewardship with, talks about this really beautifully, and what that looks like to have, like, loving, inclusive, and a community that's integrity filled. And I think, what you're talking about is something it, it, it deserves a lot more exploration in terms of how we can be very proactive, and preemptive around it.

[00:29:26] Emily: So what, how can we start that conversation? What do you recommend for starting that conversation in our community? Like how, I mean, because I know, like, I'm not trying to convince people who don't want to listen to me, right? But we start with the community that we have and then hope to grow that community through demonstrating value and efficacy. So, so where do we start with that in terms of like, this is what compassionate accountability looks like. Like, we are going to point out when you do harm, and that doesn't mean that we're, we're trying to hurt you in a retaliatory way, it means we expect more of you. We expect you to take in that feedback, absorb it, and change your behavior. Right? So how do, how do we, how do we create that culture? Where would we start and do you have resources?

[00:30:17] Laura: For me and I, I, I, I talked about this, I think for sure in Trauma Stewardship, and I think also in The Age of Overwhelm and we've talked about it quite a bit on the podcast too. I, I really have looked to elders a lot. And I've looked to elders, ranging from, Desmond Tutu to Thich Nhat Hanh, to folks who I have the privilege of having close in my life who are elders. And I think being able to talk with folks where it's just like, you're just, it's just not, you're just not going to go up against these folks. They're just, their, their integrity is so, so beyond, and I think being able to, be able to listen to elders, learn from elders, talk with elders who can help remind us, like, hey let's ground in humility here, and let's ground in self reflection, and let's ground in some grace. For me, I mean, there's, as you know, much more we could say there, but that's, that's what I've really looked to, and some of what I've tried to talk about in the writing, and in that podcast.

[00:31:19] Emily: Beautiful. Thank you so much. So we will make sure to have your website, links to both books, your podcast in, in the show notes so that we can, collectively our listeners, and we at Pet Harmony can, can absorb some of that and, and bring it into our profession because it is, it is much needed.

[00:31:37] Laura: That's great. Yeah. And Emily, thank you so much for the work, you're doing and your colleagues are doing. And, maybe at some point, we can have another part of this conversation, cause I really, I, I just anytime I can work with folks who are doing work with, animals, other living beings and, like, connecting that to the planet, and I just like anything I can do. I really want to be of support. So just like the, as you said, there's a lot of resources on our website. We try to make sure finances are not a barrier ever. And if I can just ever be of support, I hope you'll call on me, and just that your listeners know our institutes there as well.

[00:32:09] Emily: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much. It has been such an honor to speak with you. I deeply appreciate you and everything that you do. 

[00:32:16] Laura: Thank you Emily, take good care. Thank you so much for having.

[00:32:19] Allie: I love how every decision Laura makes is in the context of the big picture of harm reduction and the interconnectivity of everything and everyone on this planet. It puts our experiences in perspective, which somehow simultaneously is so validating and also so humbling. What did I tell you? This was worth every single second and we are so grateful for Laura's time and insight. Next week we'll be talking about how to reduce harm in our industry.

If you're anything like me, you listened to a podcast episode, and the little gremlin toddler in your brain is like, the world needs to know this! So, if that's you right now, and while you were listening to this episode, you thought of someone who could benefit from it, go ahead and text them the link to this right now. I'm tasking you with being an enrichment ambassador so that together we can improve the quality of life for pets and their people.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.