#104 - Ayoka Bubar: Dog Sports as Enrichment

Flyball, Agility, Tracking, Rally Obedience, Trick Titling, Conformation, Herding, Mondioring, Obedience, oh my! If you're into canine sports or looking to learn more about them, Ayoka is your person. Get ready to step into the world of R+ dog sports! 

You can find the full episode show notes here. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ayoka: I think we forget that working with humans is social interaction for dogs. we think dogs need to play with other dogs to be fulfilled socially. And I don't think that's necessarily the case. so I think there's that social aspect of interacting with us. There's, of course, you know, access to food rewards through training is a big thing, for the dogs. I do think, the mental stimulation. They want to be, like, my dogs want to be with me and around me. Like right now, one is behind my chair and one is under the table. And if I get up and move somewhere, they're coming with me. I always joke they want to be in my skin. So if they want to be that close to me, let's do something fun together. And I think they get that, that social aspect out of it that we don't think about, sometimes. And a lot of dogs are single family dogs, so they rely on us for that social aspect. So I think that's really big.

[00:00:55] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:12] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:14] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

 Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:35] Emily: All right. Tell us your name, your pronouns and your pet.

[00:01:38] Ayoka: My name is Ayoka Bubar, my pronouns are she, they. I currently live with two pets, both Rottweilers, Epic and her daughter Saga.

[00:01:48] Emily: I love that their names are Epic and Saga. that is awesome. So tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:01:54] Ayoka: Oh, that's a very long story. But I got to where I am because, uh, one day I was in a training class with my previous dog, Bear, and my instructor asked me if I had ever considered teaching classes because she thought I had some skills, To move forward in my dog training journey. And I said, yes, because I did have some experience teaching music and teaching sports.

So teaching wasn't new to me. And I felt I had some skills and some knowledge I could share with others. And that was about, 15 years ago now. and I, let me see, what else can I tell you about my journey? I spent. Probably about seven years, working in a dog daycare during the day and teaching classes in the evenings.

So I got lots of experience watching dogs, observing behavior, learning how to manage dogs in a dog daycare, setting. for the past probably eight, nine years, I've been teaching dog sports, um, mostly, mostly dog sports, not so much the behavior side of things, but, uh, I've moved now into teaching all of my stuff online.

[00:02:59] Emily: Same. And it is. For me anyway, I miss working with animals directly, but on the other hand, I love being able to, have a broader reach by moving to a digital platform. So, so that's my experience. Do you feel the same way

[00:03:14] Ayoka: Yes.

it frees up my life for other things and definitely by being able to reach more people on the digital platform is a bonus as well. Yeah, I agree

[00:03:23] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. The work life balance thing

is very important

and very hard to come by in animal welfare. So yes, I, I agree. It's definitely been helpful for me. So. My business partners, Allie and Ellen and I, we love what you do because whether or not you're intentionally doing it, your work challenges, a couple of big assumptions that are common in our industry.

And the first is that the really high octane protection sports like Monduring and IGP cannot be done through kinder, positive reinforcement focus techniques. The second is that sports that require precision training and really high levels of reinforcement are quote unquote unnatural and therefore mutually incompatible with enrichment. And even though the first one, I think, is a more widespread belief, it's the second one that really hurts my heart the most, because it's the one that a lot of people seem to think that we at Pet Harmony endorse.

And I think I know how that misunderstanding has happened, because Allie and I are the first to admit that the kind of high level precision training for competition sports that you excel at, is not our wheelhouse at all. 

we've devoted our careers to helping pets stay in homes by finding the simplest, most effective, and most mutually enriching way for pets and their people to live together in harmony, which rarely involves the kind of long term capital T training sessions, that, that are, are more, uh, expected in like a competition context, much less the precision sort of shaping that happens in, in what you do, right? 

So I think somewhere along the way, a lot of people have gotten it into their heads that we are anti training and we think that training is mutually incompatible with enrichment because it isn't quote unquote natural. But you and I both know that collaborating to build extraordinary skills and successfully perform tasks together is what humans and dogs have been doing since time immemorial. So basically that's where I want to start this conversation.

Can you talk more about your process of how you build that collaborative relationship? And how the work that you do with them does provide enrichment and meet needs and all that good stuff and the ways in which You do give your dogs choice and control in the work that you do together I would I would love to hear you talk about that.

[00:05:49] Ayoka: Sure. I start that collaborative process, as you call it, with my dogs, the day they come home. they are learning. I call it learning how to be a dog. So I work on all of those things that people in what we call pet homes are working on. But I work on them, with an eye to building collaboration for, things later on. One thing that I, I am a big proponent of for competition, and that I start with my dogs when they come home, is, Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed Protocols. And they were developed for higher level competition folks to get dogs back into competition, but we're learning, that they can be used and in all areas. And that is kind of the foundation of the training that I do with my dogs. And those protocols work on, learning when a dog is Knowing what to do when they're uncomfortable, knowing how to gradually increase distraction, difficulty, and that kind of thing, and a gradual pace. And basically getting to really know your dog so you can intervene if they are uncomfortable. And I think, a lot of the exercises in that program are really helpful. helpful for that. And the way of looking at dogs through that program is really helpful for that. So that's where I start with my guys. and that builds, a training helps build, I call it a training relationship. So my dogs know that, In a certain context, if we go, say, into my living room, because that's where most of the training happens, so I don't have a fancy facility. if we go into my living room, and I have a bucket of cookies up on the buffet, in that context, my dogs know they can. Offer behaviors. so I built that learning context and they will offer me different behaviors to to access food rewards which You know our dogs love food and you know food and access to food is the ultimate form of enrichment if you ask me especially because we can control it pretty easily so we can use it pretty frequently, 

[00:07:53] Emily: No, no problem I kind of threw multiple questions at you at once so i'm happy to to break them down again Before we move on, actually what I'm going to do is set aside those questions because I want to circle back to some of the things that you said just now that are really beautiful. So I think one of the things that I really love, the first thing that you said that I really loved was that you said you start from the beginning of building that relationship and you just, you make it, Your focus to help your dogs be dogs, but in the context of your relationship in your home.

And that's something that I think a lot of people are confused about what that actually looks like because there are books that, 

Offer misleading advice on what being a dog looks like and so it can get really muddy for people. So I would love to pull that thread and hear you talk a little bit more about what exactly you're doing when you bring dog into a home and and build that collaborative relationship and let them be a dog.

What does that look like?

[00:08:49] Ayoka: being a dog in my house, because you're right, it will look different in different houses. Being a dog in my house, involves learning how I call it, say please before you eat. I've got multiple dogs and having dogs jumping up on me while I'm getting food prepared is, It has, uh, become a huge disaster.

Kibble is everywhere, and I have dogs that will resource guard. So, in my house, it's really important that everybody goes to their spot, where their dinner is, and waits for their dinner. Something simple like that. Other important things about being a dog in my house are not dashing out the doorway, not because I feel that I am a higher rank than my dog or not, but because we live in a town and out the doorway is a street where they could run into and get injured. So I'm looking at safety, primarily. being a dog in my house. Doesn't involve though, you know, one of the things that isn't a big thing in my house that maybe for some other people is learning to walk on leash so they can access some exercise. I have opportunities to walk my dogs off leash and I consider the training that we do enrichment as well.

So they get their enrichment mostly through training that we do. being a dog in my house is learning how to take cookies gently, um, because I'm going to be giving them cookies their entire lives, and it's a lot easier for Rottweiler to take a cookie gently out of your hands. So some basic, really basic, things, coming when called. My dogs learn the basics of sit, lie down, and that kind of stuff as well, because that's helpful in our competition work, but I might teach it a little bit differently than someone who is looking at getting a sit or a lie down in a pet setting. Going to the vet, learning that the vet can be a fun place where you get cookies and it isn't always a place filled with trauma and pain and awful things. so we do lots of, I call it fun vet visits, where we just go in, we get weighed, we go say hi, we go home. let me see. What else do I do? Learning to take baths. I mean, I could go through your enrichment thing here and pull out, you know, what do I do with my puppies? But that's learning how to be a dog in my house.

My expectations for how a dog would behave. to make my life easier and to make their life easier. So giving them some structure, if you will, around their behavior. And we train that exactly the same way that we train that I train everything else. I use positive reinforcement. primarily I use shaping when I can, always keeping in mind safety. so we use leashes, we use collars, um, for when we need them.

[00:11:27] Emily: I love all of that so much because, what, you know, your emphasis on, like, this is what it looks like in my house. This isn't about, being the boss or being a higher rank, it's about how do we all successfully live together so that we can all be meeting our, all of our needs can be met

and we can have a lifestyle that makes sense for us, for our environment in our household, and it absolutely makes sense that in your context.

Most of the enrichment comes from training because, you live in an urban space. I've had people come to workshops that I've been teaching and they live out in a rural area with a bunch of livestock. And they're like, I don't do any of that stuff with my dog. And I'm like, yeah, you don't have to, because your environment is doing most of the work for you.

So like, that's, that's something that I think. It's a really beautiful aspect of what you brought up, is that enrichment is really about how do we give animals the best quality of life and the best way to meet their own needs in a safe way and a socially appropriate way in the environment they live in, not in this ideal shoulda coulda woulda world, but in reality, in the real world.

What does enrichment look like for them? So I really appreciate you spelling all of that out. Another thing that I love about your answer was when you were talking about food being one of the most accessible ways to provide enrichment for animals, and you're so right, if you look at wild animal behavior, Most species devote a pretty large period of their day to food acquisition.

So I love that you talked about how, like, most of, of what you're doing is, about how different ways that they can, um, have control over that access to food, what can they do with their behavior. To to get access to food. So can you give us a few examples of what day to day life looks like in different ways?

I mean, obviously they can get access to food through training, but are there other ways that you give them those opportunities in your house?

[00:13:25] Ayoka: primarily way at mealtimes I don't do a lot of food enrichment per se but At mealtime sitting and waiting for their food is the doorway or lying down

Is a primary way to get access to food if they want to Go into their kennels when it's bedtime, they get a cookie for going into their kennels at bedtime.

If they want to come out of their kennels and they wait, they get a cookie for waiting to be released out of their kennels. So

it's, you know, having food. and I keep those cookies, you know, those are the main ways that they are accessing food throughout the day outside of training. Um, it's not a lot, especially with an older trained dog.

With a puppy, I might be rewarding everything that I can. Sits, downs, coming when called, Bringing me toys, retrieving, because that's a big competition behavior. different things, but with an older, trained adult dog, mainly around food, mainly around bedtime, mainly around, leaving the house to do something exciting is where they have access, to food.

[00:14:27] Emily: Yeah. I, I love that. Thank you so much for describing that. because one thing you said is, I, I don't use a lot of food enrichment, and I think what you meant, if I'm understanding you correctly, is that you don't have a lot of food puzzles. Is that 

[00:14:39] Ayoka: Yeah, I have some, but I primarily use them with my young dogs, you know, to be honest, with my younger dogs that are a little busier.

[00:14:46] Emily: Yeah. So, I had, um, my dog Brie, uh, she recently passed away, but, they don't live long enough. but she was feral when we first adopted her. She's feral for the first year of her life. And so and she was a desert dog. And so what I saw from a lot of feral desert dogs is they were very guardi over food, which makes sense.

If you live in an environment where resources are scarce,

you're going to protect those resources. Yeah. So when we first started out, we, we, the first thing that we did with them is established that they have different feeding stations so that just like what you do with your dogs, we're keeping them in a separate space.

And they know if they want access to food, they can go to that space. And for that reason, it was not appropriate for me to use food puzzles as a form of enrichment. Because if she left any, or if he left any, and then there was any kind of conflict, And then if there was any food left over, that could set us up for conflict.

As their relationship developed, they got to a point where they would collaborate on food puzzles. But what Brie got out of it was solving the puzzle, and she didn't really care about the food, and Copper would just sit and wait for her to solve the puzzle, and then he'd swoop in and eat the food afterwards.

[00:15:53] Ayoka: a brilliant dog!

[00:15:55] Emily: They tag teamed food puzzles, but what that meant is that using food puzzles as a form of enrichment or food acquisition, That's not what it looks like in our household. They didn't use food puzzles to get food, so we just stopped using food puzzles altogether. Did that mean that they didn't have food based enrichment?

Of course not, but, yeah, like, to your point, sometimes, acquisition of food can look like knowing where to go and knowing what behaviors to offer, In order to get that food, so it doesn't always have to look like a food puzzle.

so I, I really appreciate you having that discussion because it's not that you're controlling access of food so that you can create a scarcity mindset. It's that you are. Setting up a safe environment so dogs don't have conflict over food, but they have so many different ways that they can offer behavior to you to get that food.

So Thank you so much for describing how your household operates. I appreciate that. So, actually, in that conversation, we ended up answering all of the questions I had asked you, because I was basically asking you for your process of how you build that collaborative relationship and how what you do does provide enrichment and mean needs and the ways in which you give them choice and control.

And we answered all of those in the process of that discussion. so thank you for that. all right. So the next. Thing that I want to talk to you about is, that the 1st misconception that you really sort of challenged by what you do and the work that you do, so I'm really interested to hear your take on.

the belief that protection sports require aversive stimuli. And I've watched videos of trainers explaining their stance on this issue. And I've had kind of big sus feelings about their explanations, but I don't have any lived experience with protection sports to better inform my sus feelings. So can you give me an insider's perspective on what's actually going on there and how do you train those sports?

in a way that sort of challenges those beliefs.

[00:17:58] Ayoka: Sure. I'm actually not training protection sports anymore. it came down to a time issue between rally obedience and herding. I didn't have time to travel two hours to go train and protection sports, but I can give you my opinion based on the time that I did spend in training protection sports and not to a high level, but I think observing other people training to higher levels gave me an idea of how we might, do that, and whether it's, it's compatible or not.

And in my opinion, it's totally, I mean, people have done it. It's possible. It can be compatible with positive reinforcement based training. The biggest barrier in wider communities, I think is the way to do it is not well known. So there's not a lot of resources in that community for say, you decided, you know what, I've trained my previous dogs more traditionally and that was successful, but I'd like to make a change and train this dog differently. There's not a whole bunch of resources out there for people. There are a few trainers that will help. There are a few trainers, um, like in my experience that would. Sort of help me train in my own way, but not have a lot of investment in our training, if you will, you know, if that's the way you want to do it, that's fine.

I won't tell you what to do. But we're the rest of us are going to train in in another way. but a lot of the basis of those sports is in obedience. And obedience absolutely can be trained using, to a very high level, using positive reinforcement. the protection side of it, because Mondial Ring is basically obedience and protection.

The protection side of it, when I watch decoys training dogs, especially younger dogs, It's actually a really almost a master class in how to use pre med, how to use, you know, which is, you know, a low probability behavior reinforces, or sorry, a high probability behavior reinforces a low probability behavior. They use a lot of that in their training. they use a lot of positive reinforcement when the dog does something that's right. They give it access to what it wants, which is positive reinforcement behavior. I saw typically, and this is in my own little corner of the universe is people would use positive reinforcement training or strategies until they came up against something that they couldn't figure out. And that's when. maybe negative reinforcement and punished base, punishment based strategies would be used. and my, my feeling was I'll just figure it out. Like I can, I'll figure it out when I come to it. I didn't come up to anything. Now is that because we didn't get to a high enough level perhaps? but in the bite work aspect of it, I didn't find that we had to use punishment for anything. My dog was able to let go, but I taught, you know, some of the things I taught, my girl Saga as a young dog, which was trading toys, tug with one toy out, tug with another toy, is something that a lot of people in that community are just starting to do with their young puppies. So in, in my corner of the universe, that's what I'm, I'm seeing. Not that it's not possible, but that people are just not aware of how it can happen and aware of the benefits of it to their dog.

[00:21:07] Emily: yes, all of that tracks. I think more specifically because, because yes, everything that you just said are things that when I've seen people sort of defend the need for more aversive strategies. the kind of fundamental rules of behavior, like what you discussed to me, it's obvious. It's like, okay, well, We've got more learning to do in terms of the the building blocks of behavior, right?

the things the the videos that I've seen that I've specifically been like well I can't speak to that because I have no experience with these sports is Trainers talking about the need to build like a really what they are calling really high Pre drive or, or really high drive and, um, to get the dogs like amped up to want to go and grab the big suit.

Right. and their, their position has been in these videos is like, you can only get them to the place where they want to like run and pull, drag somebody to the ground. If you get them really, really amped up in a, in a sort of like agitated way. I've had a hard time seeing how that is compatible with learning.

Like, we don't want to push our learners outside of the thinking and learning zone.

but I'm like, also like, I 

can't speak to that because I have no experience with that sport. So I think that's the, to be more specific, that is the stuff that I've seen that I'm like, that seems real sus to me, but also I don't have the experience to speak to that.

So that's what I'm really hoping to learn from 

[00:22:33] Ayoka: I don't think everybody believes that anymore. I think there are certainly people that do. I think there are lots of people, um, from a gentleman from, oh, I have to think now. I want to say Belgium. but a lot of what he said is, you know, in a lot of our dogs, they want, genetically, it's in them to want to bite. What we need to work on from the beginning is obedience around that biting, so that if they want to bite, just like if they want a piece of food, we need them to perform a behavior for us in order to access that positive, like the biting is, is a positive. It's something they want to do anyways, that high, that high probability behavior. So let's use other obedience based stuff and what I found and what may be happening in the videos that you are seeing is people get the dog so high. In some ways, I wonder, I wonder, if it's so that they can take those really harsh corrections and keep on so I think, I think that may be what's happening, but it's not, um, more barking, but it's not necessary.

I don't, I don't think from what I've seen, it's not necessary, but that's the traditional way that it's been done. So people will do it and continue to do it, um, in the way that's known.

[00:23:51] Emily: it's just so cute because she's just like I have a big 

[00:23:55] Ayoka: Yeah, excuse me.

And of

course I'm not getting up to acknowledge it, so.

She's convinced that it's a really big concern if

I'm not 

[00:24:05] Emily: danger, Will Robinson.

Oh, that's delightful.

okay. Thank you for explaining that to me, because I, I, now I have a better understanding of the kernel of truth in that perception. Which is something that I actually agree with, which is if you're seeing a dog expressing a species typical behavior that that is an innate behavior, we want to give them more appropriate context to perform that behavior instead of just trying to stop the behavior from occurring.

So I do, I think that kernel of truth in that, in that argument or that perception. Does make sense because yes, yes, I also want my animals to be able to do the things that they want to do just in a, in a way that doesn't cause harm or, or, you know, self harm or harm to anybody else. Right? but the belief that.

That has to include high levels of distress is where we diverge in our, in our opinions. Right? So, yeah, thank you for explaining that. So, I know that you said that you don't do the protection sports anymore and you weren't ever really, You know, that wasn't ever your like primary sport,

but how did you teach that?

Were you just shaping like a bite and a pull through like the tug game? How, how did you, how did, what was the alternative route for teaching those skills? 

[00:25:25] Ayoka: actually, it was the what we call the decoy. That's the man in the suit, if you will, but we actually started off with tug toys. So, he was able to, using positive reinforcement, knowing that's how I wanted to teach my dog is that if she If she bit the tug appropriately and was actually, um, pushing into the bite, then he would let her quote, unquote, win the tug. And if she did not do that, then she did not win the tug. So she learned pretty quickly that if she wanted to keep possession of this tug, which she really did, that she had to bite it in a specific way. And he was really good at that for someone that uses, you know, that uses, punishment as well. He was very good. At the side of positive reinforcement, like really, really good. And his timing and, the way that he did that with my dog.

[00:26:16] Emily: mean, that makes sense to me because if you look at trainers who use a mixture of, of procedures and methods that result in a mixture of consequences, they, when they're at that level of performance, they're very good at time. I mean, you have to be good at timing in order to execute punishment effectively.

Right. So, so that, that totally tracks, but thank you for explaining how, like what the alternate route is, because like I said, I have no experience with the sport, but, I was really curious about, you know, how, what, what the alternatives 

are 

[00:26:46] Ayoka: And I would say for most young dogs, in the beginning of their journey, that's how it's taught. Like, I don't think in, in our case that it was taught differently for my dog than another, but I was just very clear that's how I wanted it, to be done. and usually if, when we get into. issues with, using punishment. It's not in the biting. It's in the letting go. when asked to, and we didn't actually have a huge issue with that. And that's usually something that's taught at a more advanced level, but I had been teaching my dog at an earlier level just because of the way and some of the other things that we had trained for. But it wasn't the traditional way for things to be done, if you will. 

[00:27:24] Emily: Awesome. okay, so I obviously I internet stock everybody that we have on to the podcast before we have them on, and I was really thrilled to see that you have, participated in and even been a judge for, um, A lot of different types of dog sports and my impression, especially based on your comments just now, is that you have a slight preference maybe towards Raleo and herding, but it seems like not by a lot.

I mean, like, it seems like you still have like a wide array of things that you do. I'm really, I would love to hear Take care.

This is also a multiple part question, so we can break this down if we need to. but what do you get out of each sport and what do your dogs get out of them? So for your dogs who have multiple titles in multiple sports, do you see differences in how they respond to each sport?

And how they feel or behave after participating in them. But I know that was multiple questions. So let's start with the first part of that question, which is, what do you get out of each sport that you participate in? And, what's the, the thing that makes you feel good about each of them?

[00:28:31] Ayoka: Rally Obedience and Obedience, I put those two together because I trained them together. what I get out of it is, is building that teamwork because as many people will criticize Rally and Obedience as being, as you said before, unnatural, you know, there's never a Time where a dog will heal beside you perfectly like that for, you know, on its own, but the teamwork that you've built all of those behaviors and your dog is willing to perform those behaviors with you together on a course that, you don't get to see the course before competition.

You see it the same day as competition and you get a chance to walk through it. But being able to take something that's new to you and complete it together as a team and those behaviors are built pretty much from scratch, like not a lot of them are what I would say are free behaviors that you get from dogs.

They have to be built, not always from scratch, you know, some dogs are more into hanging out beside you. Um, but you've built those behaviors from, from maybe tiny, tiny behaviors into something that is a two minute to five minute performance. So that's what I get out of it.

[00:29:43] Emily: That's delightful. I don't know why this is the image that came into my head when you were describing the process of these, Raleo and obedience trials, but it feels to me like behavioral Legos. Where you have to like construct each of the legos on your own, but then you get to the competition and you're like, oh, what building are we building with the legos that we have? 

[00:30:02] Ayoka: Very, uh, appropriate analogy. Yes.

[00:30:06] Emily: Yeah, so that's delightful because it is like a puzzle or a game. I mean, when it's done well and when you have that collaborative relationship with your dog, It is like a puzzle or a game where it's like, oh, what, how, what are we building today with our Legos that we've created? So, yeah, that's actually, uh, delightful. Okay, what about the other sports that you've participated in? 

[00:30:27] Ayoka: in?

herding, what I love and get out of the sport is seeing dogs perform very natural behaviors. You know, some behaviors that I haven't trained. Of course, training adds some parameters around those behaviors in herding. but seeing dogs do what they've been bred for millennia to do. Naturally, those instinctual behaviors is, there's nothing, in my opinion, cooler than seeing a dog do what they've been bred to do and seeing them do it well.

[00:30:56] Emily: I love that, and I'm going to butcher, so I'm just going to, I'm going to do the, Epistemologically irresponsible thing because I don't remember the researchers. I don't remember the paper or anything about the details, but I feel like in the past few years, there was a paper looking at, like, the, like, genetics of different types of dogs and that, like, the herding breed dogs had the most baked in, sort of, like, innate behaviors and I'm, I'm sure I'm butchering that. So everybody listening, please take that with several huge grains of salt. but I remember reading that paper and being like, yeah, that tracks. 

[00:31:34] Ayoka: And nobody, I mean, people don't think of Rottweilers as herding breeds, but they're actually one of the oldest herding breeds. They're guardians as well, but their primary use was moving livestock around on the farm. 

[00:31:44] Emily: Absolutely. I think a lot of people don't realize that the patrol breeds were herding breeds that they just repurposed for patrolling instead. But there's a lot of very similar behavioral patterns that happen in herding and in patrolling. So, yeah, Awesome. All right. What other sports?

[00:32:00] Ayoka: I have done a little bit of tracking. I don't right now rally and herding take up all of my time. I have done some tracking and that's another really cool sport where you're seeing your dog, your dog knows the game, your dog can find something. It's about teaching your dog to tell you once it's found something and to follow that track.

So it's another one where it's really cool to watch a dog instinctually do, Something that it can do and all dogs can do tracking some breeds are better than others at it. They say But I've seen all sorts of dogs track from bloodhounds to a little pappy 

[00:32:33] Emily: Yeah 

I love that. I think one of the things I love about the way that you're talking about these sports is that there, there's a sort of another sort of persistent and long standing belief that if it's an instinctual behavior, you can't change it, so you just have to punish it or suppress it if you don't like it.

Whether or not you realize it, when you're talking about, like, we're taking these instinctual behaviors and we're putting parameters around them, or we're teaching them how to do it in context, what it shows is that just because a behavior is innate, and it was the dog's sort of biological starter kit, that doesn't mean that those behaviors aren't still influenced by consequences.

And antecedents for that matter.

And so even though, yeah, it's like, it's part of their evolutionary starter kit. That doesn't mean that we can't shape and influence those behaviors. 

And I love that discussion. 

[00:33:24] Ayoka: and I would actually, to get into that discussion just a little bit more, I would actually say that working with humans is part of that evolutionary starter kit. Working with people is definitely part of it. That's why we kept the dogs that we kept, is because they worked with us. So what we call bitability, in, you know, the dog training side and breeding side of things, that bitability is. They do want to work with us. And you find that just like any other characteristic, more in some dogs than in others. Uh, I have it more in one dog than in another in herding. so we struggle a little bit more to put parameters around things because naturally she wants to work independently and do her own thing.

[00:34:06] Emily: that is such a good point to bring up because there are a lot of, like, the livestock guardian breed dogs are thought of as, like, untrainable or you have to dominate them. I hear this all the time about, like, bower bells and, and conicursos, is that, like, well, they, they're just going to do what they're going to, oh, sighthounds are another one that are, like, you can't really train them because, and it's, like, no, no, no.

It's they're capable of learning because every sentient being is capable of learning. It's just that these dogs have been bred for centuries or sometimes even millennia to do a job on their own. Whereas like herding breeds have been bred to do a job in collaboration with a human. So where we, it's not that they can't be trained.

It's that we have to figure out how to make it make sense for them based on What the the the evolutionary starter kit that they have, 

right? 

[00:34:55] Ayoka: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:34:56] Emily: Yeah. Oh, I love this conversation. Thank you Okay, so are there any other sports that even though you're not really heavily involved with them now? You've had good experiences with that.

You want to just give a shout out to you. I love this sport because it helps me with blank.

[00:35:10] Ayoka: I have to think now, I really enjoyed carting, which is where your dog pulls a cart. my original Rottweiler bear took to that like a duck to water. I wish we had pursued it a little more in the competition levels, but we just carted around for fun. Um, my other two dogs haven't enjoyed it as much, but that is really fun and useful. Sport. If you got a haul of firewood somewhere, you can load up the cart, take it if you're out, you know, and it's a sport that, you know, the public loves to see, you know, parades, that kind of stuff. the other really popular sport that I haven't done a lot of, but I think is great because it's great for, you talked about more urban dogs is scent work, which is scent detection, which is finding, you know, which is the, the parallel to drug de finding drugs or contraband or that type of stuff in dogs.

So in the sports, we're using essential oils. Tiny little drop of essential oil that's been on a Q-tip for four weeks. A dog can find it. I think that is such a great sport for dogs and for people because you can teach it in your house. Mm-hmm

[00:36:11] Emily: Okay, that actually brought up another question that I was not prepared to ask you. But now, now you got my my wheels turning, because you have experience with both tracking and trailing. And, and for the benefit of our listeners, I'm going to interrupt myself and define these terms. So tracking is when the dog is following a scent trail of an active moving target.

So, so they're like a little rabbit is running through the woods and the dog is, is using that scent trail to follow the rabbit, right? and then trailing is a stationary object that has potentially and usually been there for quite some time. And so they're following a more static scent trail that may also not be super fresh, right? so tracking and trailing, in different sports can look like, tracking could look like, Yeah, hunting sports or, or what was the one that you said you did? did? you just call it tracking? 

[00:37:02] Ayoka: I just called it tracking. That's in the AKC and CKC, the Canadian club and American Kennel Club call it tracking.

[00:37:07] Emily: Okay. so yes, that's tracking and the scent work that Ioka was just talking about is, is our trailing and search and rescue is another type of trailing usually. sometimes search and rescue can be tracking, but we won't get into that. 

[00:37:21] Ayoka: Yeah. 

[00:37:23] Emily: so I just had to define those terms for our listeners to know what we're talking about. But since you have experience with both tracking and trailing sports, What differences do you notice in the dogs and how they work in maybe ways that you have to fine tune their behaviors to get them to be really good at those sports? What are the differences that you've experienced? 

[00:37:43] Ayoka: That's a really good question. I don't have any experience with the scent work. So the trailing in a sport context, I've only done it at home for fun versus the tracking, which we've done in a couple of tests. I think just thinking about it, it's the sense that your dog is trailing are different. Like I think a dog is capable of doing both well in context, but how they find scent may be a little bit, a little bit different. You know, if I was to do both. I don't know which one I would teach at the same time because I'm not experienced enough to know. That's a really good question, Emily.

[00:38:20] Emily: Awesome. Well, so what I'm hearing is that 

[00:38:23] Ayoka: You stumped me. 

[00:38:25] Emily: yay What this tells me that like now I have to find somebody who can who can answer that question to come on to the show. I can't wait to learn more about the differences between tracking and trailing and, and how we teach them and how the dogs respond to them. Awesome! Okay, so the second half of that question was, what do your dogs get out of these sports? Like, what, what are the different outcomes that you see for in your dogs when they perform these different sports?

[00:38:54] Ayoka: I think in the instinct based sports, I find my dogs, I find if I use the word enrichment it enriches them perhaps more than the obedience based sports like obedience and rally. It fulfills them. Sort of, you know, it fulfills the bandwidth a little fuller than Obedience or Raleigh might. I had my original dog, Bear, was quite a reactive dog and I struggled with him and Raleigh, for quite a while. And what I noticed is once I started doing tracking and herding with him, a lot of his reactivity based behaviors were a lot easier to manage. And I don't know, you know, I'm sure there's a scientific reason out there for that, but my anecdote is, and my, my belief is that because he was being fulfilled fully as a dog in some of those other areas that I couldn't, if I wasn't doing those sports, that managing him and managing some of those behaviors in a sport context became a lot easier.

[00:39:51] Emily: Yeah, for what it's worth, I worked at a sanctuary that had over 400 dogs, most of whom had, pretty significant to severe, physical or behavioral special needs. I shouldn't call them severe. Let's call them complex.

my business partner, Allie, and I, Did a lot of scent work with the dogs.

We had a scent work program where the, where the caregivers would bring the dogs and we consistently saw a dramatic decrease in the stress based behaviors, not just reactivity, but, um, the anxieties, the separation issues, like, scent work seems to be, I don't want to call it a panacea because it didn't fix everything.

It definitely was like an all purpose balm, like de 

stressor kind of, you 

[00:40:32] Ayoka: Yeah. Yeah. And I wondered if through the journey of learning, herding and tracking, I learned to observe my dog better and that made everything, just consistently better. I don't know, but I do know that participating in those sports made things. So after learning that about him, you know, it has been my goal to do something instinct based with, with all of my dogs if I can.

[00:40:54] Emily: Yeah. I, I'm a big proponent of that as well. I get all dogs that I live with or I'm fostering or whatever, or, you know, working with clients, I get them started on. a type of scent work that is sustainable and enjoyable for the human caregiver in their environment, whatever that looks like, which it can look like a lot of different things.

Beautiful. So, okay. You said that with the, the, what we're calling, we're going to use the umbrella term instinct focused sports. You do see more of that, um, like decompression as a result, but, with the, with the more like obedience, Raleo type of things, because it's behavioral Legos, and also because you have that relationship with your dogs.

What do you see them getting out of it? To me, like, I'm comfortable saying, like, it's fun for a dog if they enjoy working with you and they enjoy the Legos, right?

but can we either dive into more like what fun looks like and what the impact of fun for them is, or is there, is it more than just fun?

Is there something else that they're getting out of those sports?

[00:41:55] Ayoka: I think we forget that working with humans is social interaction for dogs. we think dogs need to play with other dogs to be fulfilled socially. And I don't think that's necessarily the case. I see you nodding. so I think there's that social aspect of interacting with us. There's, of course, you know, access to food rewards through training is a big thing, for the dogs. I do think, you know, the mental stimulation. You know, I've always said, and I can speak to Rottweilers because that's a breed I know well, but I think this goes for other dogs. They want to be, like, my dogs want to be with me and around me. Like right now, one is behind my chair and one is under the table. And if I get up and move somewhere, they're coming with me. I always joke they want to be in my skin. So if they want to be that close to me, let's do something fun together. And I think they get that, that social aspect out of it that we don't think about, sometimes. And a lot of dogs are single family dogs, you know, no other dogs.

so they rely on us for that social aspect. So I think that's really big.

[00:43:02] Emily: Yes. As you could see, I radically agree with you. And I think that's one of the things that, It's going to be really helpful when we're having as an industry, these conversations about how much we care about natural. and especially I think part of the reason that that becomes so confusing surrounding the topic of enrichment is because how Markowitz defined enrichment as quote, unquote, more like nature.

and I think we need to really strongly distinguish between more like nature, which his, his intention in saying that was, we have to be mindful of how they existed in the natural world and give them some analogs to that in the human world, right? but there's a strong difference between that and if it's not natural, it's not good,

because what does natural look like for a dog, for a species, I mean, who has been domesticated for, um, Upwards of 20, 000 years, what is natural for, for that level of domestication and for that matter, humans don't live in a natural world.

I mean, we're not all hunter forager gatherers in, in the forest or in the plains or, you know, we have to look at what is a realistic analog for, sort of The origin of the species, in the, the real world environment that they actually live in. Right. And what I love about what you were just 

saying is that social interaction doesn't have to look like necessarily social interaction with conspecifics.

It can look like interaction with other species when you have a really good relationship with that other species. Yes. And so, yes, if those types of sports are a way to facilitate that relationship building and that bonding and playing together, then that's a win, right? And, you know, one of my therapists told me one time, the couple that plays together stays together.

And I feel like that's also true for trans species relationships as well, right? The animal human team that plays together stays together. So, if the sports are play rather than pressure, then it is doing that job. It is serving that purpose in their lives. So yes, thank you for saying that, because yeah, the whole time I was like, yes, yes, yes.

[00:45:15] Ayoka: And the thing I love about about rally obedience, is that you can learn it. Just like you can learn cent work in your living room, you can learn the basics of rally obedience in your living room. You don't need a fancy facility. You don't need. to be able to go to Group classes. You can even trial in Rally Obedience.

If you were interested in trialing, you don't have to go to a public event. You can do virtual trialing in Rally Obedience. So, you know, you don't, it's, it's more accessible to more people. and I think that makes it more accessible to more dogs.

[00:45:45] Emily: Yes, absolutely. And accessibility matters. I mean,

if we're setting the bar so high that only like, you know, the top, 10 percent of income earners or the most able bodied people or only people who live in like densely packed urban large city environments, then we're not doing a good job of meeting the needs of pets or their people.

Right? so yeah, I love that you brought that up. That accessibility component is, is great. is really important.

so, you know, in some sports, I'm not knocking them. I, I think they're great. They serve a purpose. They can, definitely be beneficial for both the people and the dogs, but some sports are just inherently less accessible than others.

So I love that, that you brought that up, that Raleo is just a very accessible sport that anyone can do. Yeah. Beautiful. All right. At the end of every interview, I like to ask everybody the same set of questions. And the first of those questions is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:46:41] Ayoka: Oh, that's a tough one. I would say that, something that people can take away from this discussion might be to investigate what dog sports are available in their area. Because there may be more than you realize it may be something you enjoy and maybe something your dog enjoys Maybe something you both enjoy but my approach has always been I want to try everything to see what it's like I know not everybody can try everything but I've lived in different parts of Canada, so that's really helped me be able to try everything, but investigate what dog sports might be available, um, in your area, and if you don't have anything available in your area, investigate what dog sports you might be able to learn online.

[00:47:20] Emily: I love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, explore dog sports as an enrichment opportunity for you and the dog or dogs in your life.

[00:47:30] Ayoka: Yes, and just

because you're training a dog sport doesn't mean you have to compete in it. Your dog gets the enrichment. Regardless, the competing really is for humans and some of us enjoy that, but you can train a sport without ever competing it and your dog will be never, never the wiser or your dog doesn't really care.

[00:47:48] Emily: yeah. I, I would say that Brie, Was at a competition level of nose work like her ability to find hives and incredibly complex and large fields was beautiful to behold and also because she was a feral dog it. I would never have put her in that situation. I would never have tried to make her a competition dog because new people and new places were.

Stressful and she got better over the course of her life, but definitely Yeah, you don't have to compete to 

to get the benefit from the sport.

What is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic your profession or enrichment, your choice?

[00:48:26] Ayoka: I wish people knew that it was more than changing up a food bowl. Because you know, I know a lot of people that think, oh, well, I give my dog a different food bowl and different access to food, and that might be all they do. And I wish people knew it was more than that, and that, um, they could offer their dogs more.

[00:48:50] Emily: Yeah, you were preaching to the choir I wrote a seven page blog article about conscience reloading. I was like, I just have so many feelings about this that I need to put out there. So, yes, you are preaching to the choir there.

What is 1 thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[00:49:10] Ayoka: one thing I'd like to see improved in the field of dog sports training, what I would love to see improved is a better understanding of other dog sports from one instructor to another, because I feel like My dipping my toe in a number of dog sports has really informed my learning, how I approach the dog sports the way that I do, in a positive way. And there are some people that go their entire lives and never sort of branch out into something different. And I think branching out into something different is really good for us as learners and really good for us as instructors sometimes to remember what it's like to be a beginner at something. 

[00:49:47] Emily: that makes me think of Robert Sapolsky's book behave in his introduction. I don't know if you read his book, but or that book, but, in the introduction, he talks about. Academia, the academic fields as buckets

and people who have, you know, a master's or a Ph. D. Just like a deep level of knowledge in their field.

They're deep into the bucket. So they know that bucket incredibly well.

and that is really important and beneficial, but also, you know, there are people like you and me who are outside of the buckets and we, we have, we have very superficial knowledge. Of all of those buckets.

but we don't have the depth of knowledge in those buckets.

And I thought that was a really beautiful analogy because it really demonstrates the importance of both.

It's important for people to be deep in the bucket. And it's also important for there to be people outside the buckets who can have a different perspective and see how they all connect with each other and and their respective importance of each one.

but hearing you talk about dog sports, I realized that that analogy actually applies to a lot of different things, not just academics versus practitioners, but also in, in things like dog sports, there is a lot of benefit to being deep in a bucket and knowing that sport inside and out. And also there's a benefit to people like you and me who are more of a jack of all trades, but master of, I mean, no, you are a master of some sports.

I am a, I'm a dabbler in a lot of different things, right? And I think that there is something to be said for somebody who has maybe an outside perspective of a lot of different things. Because when you collaborate with people who are deep in a bucket, You each bring important pieces of information to the table that you can use to improve everybody's lives, right?

yeah, there's something to be said for, you know, people who are deep in the buckets and something to be said for people who take more of a buffet approach.

[00:51:37] Ayoka: Yes.

[00:51:41] Emily: I love that. Alright, what do you love about what you do?

[00:51:43] Ayoka: I love, I love watching teams become teams and partners. I love watching that human animal bond develop between teams through, um, dog sports and there's not much better than seeing a team, you know, that starts with a little bit of difficulty, a little bit of challenge, come together to be able to perform, a rally course together, whether that's in competition or not, because it's a lot of hard work. And I love, I love watching people realize that their dogs can do, you know, things that maybe they didn't think they were capable of.

[00:52:16] Emily: That is delightful. Yeah, thank you for that. Okay, what are you currently working on? If people either want to work more with you or learn from you, where can they find you?

[00:52:25] Ayoka: They can find me, my website is ayokabubar. com, A Y O K A B U B A R dot com. I'm currently working on developing, Rally Fundations class. So Foundations for Rally, but having a little bit of fun using positive reinforcement. I'm also working on a Healing for Rally Obedience class. I've been teaching, the novice, intermediate, and advanced levels of Rally Obedience.

For a couple of years online, and that's still ongoing, but the new stuff is the foundation's class, hopefully to come in the new year and the healing for rally obedience to come in the new year, and they're all available. If you check under services. So I oka boo bar dot com slash services. You'll see my upcoming classes there.

[00:53:07] Emily: Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me today. This has been such a delightful conversation and I appreciate you and everything that you do.

[00:53:15] Ayoka: Thank you very much.

[00:53:16] Allie: If you're anything like me, you listened to a podcast episode, and the little gremlin toddler in your brain is like, the world needs to know this! So, if that's you right now, and while you were listening to this episode, you thought of someone who could benefit from it, go ahead and text them the link to this right now. I'm tasking you with being an enrichment ambassador so that together we can improve the quality of life for pets and their people.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.