#105 - But, Like, What Even Is Training, Anyway?

We talk about training a lot. But, like, what even IS training? Does it have to involve a treat pouch and clicker? Or, perhaps, could it involve Allie bear crawling up a platform and nothing more? Check out today's episode to find out. 

You can find the full episode show notes here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Allie: One of the ways that Emily and I assess training to, and I still hate to say that it's good or bad because there's so much nuance that goes into something and saying good or bad feels very black or white and we live in a gray world, but for lack of a better word right now to determine if it's good or bad, note that I'm using air quotes but you can't see that because podcast.
We are looking for is it effective, is it efficient, and is it empathetic? Would we want to be learning in the same way that we are teaching another? Because again, training is simply teaching. Like, you could put training and teaching as synonyms as far as I'm concerned. 
Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...
[00:01:00] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...
[00:01:02] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.
 Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.
Last week, we heard from Ayoka Bubar, and one of the topics we discussed was dog sports as enrichment. This week, we're going to dive further into, but like, what even is training anyway? And talk about implementation with the animals in your life. In this implementation episode, Emily and I talk about capital T training.
When is training a form of enrichment, and when it's not. Enrichment and agency collapsing in on each other. Can an opt in behavior be coercive? And me bear crawling up a platform. Alright, Emily, since we're talking about what even is training anyway, it's probably good for us to define our terms. Get our ducks in a row be on the same page. Whatever cliche you would like to insert here.
[00:02:10] Emily: What a novel concept. Why, yes, Allie. It's absolutely wild that we would define our terms before we start using them. Yeah, so, so here's the thing about training is in this industry, I think we see some kind of extreme positions that I probably feel comfortable calling false dichotomies, although I would have to examine that more fully.
But anyway, the point is that there are people who are like, training is bad, it's coercive. We shouldn't train at all. If we want to do enrichment. We're not going to be like making these animals, behave like performing monkeys or whatever. And then on the other hand, there's like all training is good.
Training solves all these problems. Training is necessary and. In order for enrichment to happen, training has to happen. And the reason that I'm and also I acknowledge that there are a lot of people who fall between those 2 extremes, but we do see those arguments being made in our profession. And I think that it's really important.
I think it's extra important to define what we mean by training in order to move forward in this conversation. Because I think that those extremes are probably the stances that they're taking because they are defining the term training differently. And so they're talking past each other. That's my suspicion.
Although obviously people can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think this stems from In behavior analysis, there are terms for two different types of training, and once upon a time, I knew those terms, but I've just gotten to a point in my profession where I care more about people being able to do the concepts well than, like, know the names, and so I myself have forgotten a lot of terminology.
But one is like what we think of as training where, we've got our treat treats and we've got our clicker or whatever marker we're using and we're standing in front of the animal and we're like, repeating this skill through worrying, shaping, capturing, whatever and we've got a plan and the plan is sometimes written out and we are like making sure that we've got a specific end goal.
And then the other type of training is like, where you just set up the environment so that learning happens and so the trainer is not actually the one delivering the antecedents. And even the consequences, sometimes the environment is doing it. Well, I think the trainer, like, arranges the environment so that the consequences happen.
So it's maybe more indirect. I don't remember. Again, it's been years since I learned this stuff from behavior analysis textbooks, and I just don't really need to remember the terms anymore. But the point is that, like, I refer to the first one as capital T training, and I refer to the second one as train as you go.
Like, it's just organic part of life. The reason that I make that distinction, I think it's important is because If you are alive and you are a sentient being, I'm struggling to think of anything that is alive and not sentient, but for now we'll make this distinction, if you are alive and you are a sentient being, you are learning constantly, because learning is just the state of like taking in what's happening and making adjustments or adaptations as needed to thrive, right?
So, every experience is a learning experience. Every conversation is a learning conversation for everybody involved. Every interaction is a learning interaction. So every one could make the argument that every interaction of sentient beings is training. If we wanted to take it to, an extreme. And so in that regard the people who are saying that like training is, Essential for everything are not wrong. 
So, I actually, personally, don't love doing capital T training. It's not something that I find to be fun. It's not a hobby. I don't enjoy it. To me, it's a means to an end. If a learner in my care needs to develop a skill. And the only way that I know to help them develop that skill is through capital T training to have these discreet, discreet trial training.
Oh my God, that's the term. So if a learner in my care needs to have these discreet trial training sessions in order for me to be able to teach them that skill, then I will use capital T training to get there. But if I can get away with not having to take time out of my day to do these, discrete trial training sessions, I'm not going to do them.
So most of my training happens what I call train as you go, where it's like, Oh, look this situation is happening, how do I set up this situation or respond to the situation in a way that helps my learners to. learn the skills that I, that they need. And so, so I think when we're talking about training moving forward, we are referring to capital T training just for clarity and the train as you go stuff, even though we acknowledge that it's still training, that is not what we're talking about when we're talking about training.
Because we just need, we need to have some simplistic language. To be able to carry forward this conversation, right? 
So, then, once we've, now that we've clearly defined that there's two different types of training, there's the capital T training and the train as you go training. The next question is whether or not training is good or bad. And, there are people who have strong feelings one way or the other.
And what I find interesting is that because I have been outspoken many times in many places and platforms about the fact that I don't love capital T training and I'll only use it when it, when I need to, when it's necessary, it's just a means to an end. I've had a lot of people come to me and say, I too hate training.
I too don't believe in training. And I'm going to kind of like, what, no, what, no, what is this tooth toothing? I too, I don't hate training. I do believe in training. Like what, how did you think that what happened just now? So, it's been really fascinating to hear multiple people tell that to me and it's made me realize that we need to have a discussion about what training is and whether or not it's good or bad.
And my answer is training isn't either good or bad. Training is a tool. Training is a way to help animals or learners of all species acquire skills, right? And so, like any tool, it's not intrinsically good or bad. It's how you use it. So, when we're talking about training in like, moral, in a moral context of like, is it good or bad?
We're missing the mark, and we're missing an opportunity to take a descriptive approach and ask ourselves, What are the outcomes of this training? What are the goals of this training? Are the goals of this specific training that we're doing with this learner in this context to reduce harm, to increase welfare and wellbeing, to empower this animal to allow them to perform species typical behaviors and safe, healthy, and appropriate ways. If so, then this training, if we want to speak in moralistic terms, we can say that it is good. But I would say that training is constructive if, on the other hand, we're using training to coerce or control an animal to reduce their welfare, well being, reduce their agency, prevent them from being able to express their the behaviors that bring them joy and help them survive in this world.
Then, yeah, in that context. That training is destructive rather than constructive. But I think that's an important place to start this conversation, is what even is training anyway? We're talking about capital T training or train as you go training. And is it good or bad? I don't know. It depends on the situation. So, making blanket statements about it is not particularly productive.
[00:10:03] Allie: And so the next piece of that is that training as an activity is neither good nor bad. It's, How you use it. One of the ways that Emily and I assess training to, and I still hate to say that it's good or bad because there's so much nuance that goes into something and saying good or bad feels very black or white and we live in a gray world, but for lack of a better word right now to determine if it's good or bad, note that I'm using air quotes but you can't see that because podcast.
We are looking for is it effective, is it efficient, and is it empathetic? Would we want to be learning in the same way that we are teaching another? Because again, training is simply teaching. Like, you could put training and teaching as synonyms as far as I'm concerned. And so really we're looking for those three E's.
Effective, efficient, and empathetic to look at if training is good or bad. 
And you might notice that morality doesn't really come into that. We're just looking at does this work and is it a fair and empathetic way to learn? We're not looking at like the morals that are typically attached to that good or bad label.
[00:11:22] Emily: Yeah. And I want to add to that, that we're also looking at how much agency the learner has, which is a really huge part of it. Because on one hand, we see people saying, well, I'm using this protocol or this procedure that results in negative reinforcement or positive punishment or negative punishment or whatever.
And as you can see, I'm not hurting my animal and my animal isn't traumatized. And therefore this is a perfectly good way of doing things. And again, good doesn't really factor into it at all because we're not looking at these training techniques through a moralistic lens. But what I am looking at is how much say the learner has in their own experience, which is fundamental to enrichment. Because it's fundamental to welfare and well being that's one side of the conversation that I feel is sort of like missing the point is like, yes, it's good that you're not hurting or scaring your animal. And also the procedure removes that animal's ability to have a say in their own experience and what happens to them. so what you're taking away is choice. You're not necessarily adding pain or fear. And then on the other side, we have people who are like, well, I was able to achieve these fantastic results through positive reinforcement only, and therefore it's a good protocol. And again, I'm like, good doesn't really factor into it because we're not looking at this more realistically, but does the goal that you achieved actually help your learner?
Does it increase their welfare and wellbeing? Or is it just something that you wanted and you're not really paying attention to it? The actual experience of your learner. I think that's one of the reasons that I'm continuously harping on our over reliance and over focus on operant consequences, because that's not the whole picture.
I kind I kind of don't care, what you think your operant consequence was if the learner is not having input. If it's not a dialogue between you and your learner where they really get to control their own learning process and their own learning experience and they get to have a say, I really don't care what the operant consequence is. Of course, when we do that, the operant consequences Most typically are positive reinforcement, but not always. And again, there's so many other things that we need to be caring about that when we're only caring about operant consequences, we're really ignoring enrichment and agency, which sidebar I recently, presented at a conference with Christina Spaulding, and we were talking about enrichment and she was like, the more research that's coming out, the more I'm really feeling like enrichment and agency are just kind of collapsing in on each other.
And they're the same thing. And I was like, yeah. I'm here for that. I'm here for that. Because if you think about it, if a learner has control over their outcomes, they are going to work to reduce harm in their lives and to increase their own welfare and well being. And we do that by having our needs met. So if we have control over our own learning process and our own environment, all the things that we talk about enrichment being, are actually the things that the learner is going to choose. So I kind of agree with that assessment that like really agency and enrichment are the same thing. And so when we're talking about assessing um, as a practice, we need to really break that down and look at the learner in front of us and say, did this training experience reduce harm for the learner and increase their welfare or and well being or didn't it? And If it didn't, then what do we need to change about our approach to change those outcomes and in that way, we're not looking at training as good or bad or coercive or beneficial or coercive and versus empowering where we're just. We're looking at each individual training session. We're looking at the learner in front of us, and we're assessing what the outcomes of that training actually were for that individual at that moment in time. 
[00:15:16] Allie: So along those lines, let's look at how to assess when training is a part of the enrichment process. And by that, we mean when is it increasing welfare versus when is it not part of the enrichment process, i. e. it's decreasing welfare. And Emily, I know that you and I know that you and Ayoka discussed a lot of ways that training can be enriching in last week's episode, so I'm gonna let you take it from here.
[00:15:45] Emily: One of the biggest things that kept recurring in our conversations about training is that, it's fun for the dogs. It's a way that they get to engage. It's a way that they get to meet their needs, exercise needs, foraging needs. social needs, all of the different things that Ayoka was talking about for her dogs.
It was helping them to successfully navigate their own household clear directives on how they can navigate their world in a way that benefits them, right? So empowering them to have choice control and predictability in, in their lives. So she talked about the different things that she has trained her dogs to do and how they use those skills in their life. And there were a lot of different things and they happened for a lot of different reasons, but that was the sort of recurring theme. And that very much aligns my own examples of when I have trained my animals skills. It's not, it's not I'm like, I need my animal to behave or I need my animal to perform at a certain level. It's I want my animal to be empowered to have choice control and predictability in their environment and be able to act in a way that they can improve their own welfare and well being. And obviously we go about that two very different ways because Ayoka's really into competition stuff and, and sport, dog sports, and I'm super not. But that's the commonality between the two of us is that everything that we choose to do, we're looking at through this lens of, is this going to improve our dog's experience in their life? And so even though our training decisions look very different, our outcomes for our animals are the same. So let's contrast that with examples of when training is coercive, removes choice from the learner, or ignores the learner's needs and priorities. when I was, a baby trainer, this is actually even before I started learning better ways to train dogs. I was still kind of a balanced trainer for dogs, but when I was learning how to train birds, I learned.
about positive reinforcement based training from the get go with birds. And by the way, that's some real cognitive dissonance, but what I find interesting is that my, my reasoning for having two different approaches with those species is that birds were flight animals, like prey species, whereas dogs were predator species.
So in my mind, that was why dogs needed more like control and discipline and corrections, whereas birds needed none of that. Which now. And now that I know more, that was very, very cute, flawed logic. but the point is that like, I learned how to do positive reinforcement based training with birds from the very beginning. And one of the things that I was really obsessed with was teaching a game called Big Wings, which at the time was a really popular thing to teach birds. And I did this through positive reinforcement only. But I had lots of birds because we, I worked with an aviary, for an aviary at the time. And I was not only raising lots of babies, but I was also working with a lot of adult birds. what big wings looks like is where the birds spread their wings out as far as they can. Ideally so, so spread out that the kind of the primary feathers kind of curve up. so it looks very grand. It's, it's quite stunning. It's an impressive display. and a lot of birds. that I worked with really enjoyed that.
They thought it was fun. We were using their favorite nuts or fruits as the reinforcer to, to shape that behavior. And it was great. However, I was working with one bird who was an older guy and I could see, I mean, he was doing it, but I could see that he didn't have the same joy that a lot of other birds had. And in my head, I ignored that because I was like, well, I'm using positive reinforcement. He'll, he'll learn to love it eventually. And I didn't think about the fact that there might be a reason that he wasn't as into it as the other birds that I worked with. And I later learned that he had arthritis. In his wings. And so me asking him to do that was actually painful for him. It did not increase his welfare or well being. Um, it actually increased the harm that was being caused to him. because it was not in fact an exercise that a physical therapist would recommend for a bird with. Arthritis, or at least not the kind that he had in the places that he had it. And so, yes, it was positive reinforcement. And no, it was not enrichment because it did not in any way increase his welfare and well being. He might have done it because he enjoyed the engagement and he enjoyed the nut overall, it was a net increase in harm because it was painful for him and he didn't enjoy it. And what I saw is that over time, the behavior did deteriorate. He started getting more cranky, longer latency times, more fussing at me. and I eventually just stopped doing it all together because I realized that this wasn't actually working out for him, I went through a very long process of hurting him before I finally learned that lesson. And, So that was a, a really powerful lesson for me that like, just because it's positive reinforcement doesn't mean that it's enriching. And in fact, that was quite coercive, even though it was positive reinforcement training.
[00:20:57] Allie: Great example, Emily, and I want to pull out something that you did so beautifully and talk about it, so just like, tangent, sparkles appear for a second. You talking about a situation in which you did cause harm to an individual and I hear that you wish that you had done differently and it's not stopping you from learning and growing and doing self assessment and all of those things.
I think so frequently I see people who are either so concerned about doing harm that they are essentially paralyzed. They won't do anything because they're so concerned about doing harm. And then I see people on the exact opposite who are in denial that they are doing harm, and it sounds like you were there for a little bit.
And I think it's a really beautiful and difficult skill that you just portrayed of being able to recognize that yes, I did that, and I now know better, I'm now doing better, and forgiving yourself for transgressions that may have happened in the past.
[00:22:06] Emily: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:22:07] Allie: I appreciate you. Okay, so I have another example and we're going to go along the same same kind of route of things that we usually think of as enrichment. Things that we usually think of as providing agency and all of that. And that is Opt in behaviors in cooperative care. I am currently on a kick about this y'all. I don't know that anybody knows that except for like myself and MaryKaye on our team, but I am currently on a kick about this y'all. So I was recently at a speaking event and somebody was talking about cooperative care and was talking about opt in behaviors. Beautiful. Love it. Somebody specifically asked them, do you treat for opting out? And the speaker said no. And it was like a dagger to my heart because you can't fully opt in if you can't fully opt out.
And so, this is another one of those ways where we can see even something that we perceive as it should be agency, it should be enrichment, something like an opt in behavior, can actually be coercive. And one of the really interesting things is, is that we got to see the effects of that in this speaker's presentation.
In that she included a video of a dog who technically was doing a chin rest, but was doing it so far away that she couldn't be touched. And so it was like, yeah, she is technically opting in, but she is also really, really opting out. And it was like, yeah, that's what happens when you don't treat for opting out.
And so that's another example that I often see where even though It was positive reinforcement. We think it was agency. We think it's enrichment. That dog that she showed us had a big ol no, it wasn't, because she didn't have full control over being able to opt out of that procedure because she wasn't being treated for opting out.
[00:24:08] Emily: Yeah. Yes. Yes. We share that salt. I want to acknowledge that, like, everybody's on their learning journey. And the fact that opting in is even a conversation that's happening you know, you know, push forward over the past decade. We've really grown as an industry in that way. change happens in approximations. No shame, but it's a really good example of how we can think we're giving agency. But when we actually look at the learner and how they're responding, they're telling us, I don't really have agency though. And so I'm going to, my next example is going to be sort of like the, the opposite where people are doing aversive or punishing things to their learners. And they're like, well, but you know, I'm not hurting or scaring my animals, so it's fine. So I was working with some clients who had worked with several other trainers who did use more coercive techniques than I do. And so the, the clients were good clients and they were using the techniques. And I was talking to them about why their dog. Was doing a lot of things that they didn't like. And I was explaining this, this concept of like, we need to give the dog a say in what happens to them so that they don't feel like they have to defend themselves. And the dad, Very, very sweet and well meaning was like, well, I want to show you what we do because I want you to see that we're really not hurting or scaring our dog. And I was like, I believe you, but sure, show me what you're doing. And so he showed the technique and he was using these kind of pressure release techniques. And the dog was, standing there, the dog wasn't moving away, he had a kind of like, waggy tail, he had a grin on his face, and also he was not looking at dad at all, not, not even a little bit focused on dad, very much overtly looking away from dad, so I read that as like, Affiliative, like I love my parents.
I'm going to, I'm going to still hang out with them, even though they're really rude sometimes. but throughout our meeting, throughout our discussions, I would give this dog consent. So he would come over to me and check me out. I would not immediately reach out and touch him. if he came up and, and kind of leaned into me, I would scratch his chest for a few seconds. Let him choose to move away, let him come back. If he asked me for more petting by, like, kind of pushing into my hand or leaning into me, I would continue petting him. If he didn't, if he moved away from me, I would not try to chase him or, or make him, follow through. And it took maybe 15 minutes. For over the course of 15 minutes, dad's trying to demonstrate this like pressure release thing and the dog just keeps spending more and more time with me.
And then the dog comes around to the other side of me and sits and leans against me and is, has, has me between his his owners and himself. And his dad was like, come here, come on, like, let's keep going. Let's working. And he's trying and his dog's like big grin on his face. His dog's like, no, thanks. I'm going to stay here. And he was like, he, he normally listens to me and I was like, yes. So did you notice how I was giving him the power to consent or not to being touched. And so even though he wasn't showing any kind of fear or, pain or avoidance in what you were doing because you weren't hurting him, you are absolutely right that that, that procedure that you learned was not causing pain or fear, but it was causing avoidance.
Did you see how he didn't look at you the entire time that you were working with him? And he is. looking at me quite a bit. Every few seconds he'll check in with me. Do you see how he's asking me to handle him and he's avoiding being touched by you? That is the difference between what you're, what you have been taught to do and what I am suggesting that you do. And so then I was like, would you like to try it and see what happens? And, and they were like, yes, because at first they were a little defensive and they were like, well, It's, it's cheating because you were distracting him and I was like, I wasn't distracting him though. Like he was choosing to move away from you and come to me and when he did, good things happen. So I had them practice the petting consent test stuff um, I was trying to teach them. And sure enough, In another 10 to 15 minutes, he was snuggled up between them on the sofa and, and choosing the petting from them and asking them for more. And then when he wanted a break and he got off the sofa, I said, don't, don't chase him.
Let him go. He wandered around and a few minutes later, he came right back between them again. And the wife was like, he never snuggles with us. We thought he wasn't a touchy feely dog. And it was like, no, it just turns out that he wants to have a say in when and how he gets touched. And so that's a really good example of how the opposite of how Even if the procedure isn't causing pain or fear or intimidation, if it's taking away their choice and ignoring what they're telling you that they want, it can still have an undesired outcome in terms of your relationship and their desire to work with you and the level of performance that you get out of them if it's a performance type of situation. The other thing though that I think was really noteworthy about that session and that example was that they didn't even notice that I was training their dog. Because I was doing the type of training that I like to do, what we are calling in this episode, the train as you go training, which is I wasn't having a formal session with this dog. I wasn't, doing several trials in a row. It was just whenever he did a drive by, I used that as an opportunity to engage with him. And then I'd let him move on. And whenever he'd come back, I'd be like, let's, let's have this experience. So every time I interacted with him, I was thinking about what I wanted him to get out of that interaction. and it was very subtle because we're having this whole conversation. I didn't have a clicker. I didn't have treats. I wasn't like, watch me train. I wasn't doing like multiple repetitions of the same thing over and over again. I was just sort of like. Every interaction that I did was a training interaction, and they didn't see it until I pointed it out. And that is, I think a really important thing to be aware of is that a lot of times when people think they don't like training, they don't realize that they're constantly training their animal and their animals constantly training them because Every interaction is a learning interaction. so so it can be hard to identify if you don't know to look for it, you're not necessarily going to see it. And you know what that happened with, with Chuck too, my own partner, because when we first got Bree, we lived on three and a half acres that backed up to public lands, as far as the eye could see. And this was a feral dog who had Uh, staying alive by hunting rabbit and rabbits and birds her whole life. And our property was fenced with chicken wire. And that chicken wire didn't even slow her down. She would go to full run towards that fence, slide right underneath it, go out into those public lands. And so I just got into a practice of every time she would come back in, I would have a piece of ice in my hand. And I would give her an ice cube because ice at the time was her very favorite thing. She would leave a piece of steak for an ice cube, which makes sense. If you're a desert dog, ice is, is pretty extraordinary. It's pretty novel. Right. one day Chuck commented on how good she was and how just naturally good she was at recall.
And I was like, She's not naturally going to recall I've been training. And she's like, he was like, no, you haven't. You don't do training sessions with our dogs. And I was like, no, I don't. I just train as I go. And he was like, oh. And I was like, did you really think a feral dog just had a rock solid recall and would turn on a dime on her own? And he was like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So like, even my own partner didn't recognize that when I was doing it. I think that's part of the confusion in this conversation that's happening in our industry about whether or not training is good. A lot of times we're not recognizing when training is actually happening, which is all the time. Training is always happening all the time.
[00:31:43] Allie: So with that in mind, let's get into how to make training a part of your enrichment process. And the first thing is to identify the rules, quote unquote, that you and your pet have together. And I think that story, which I love that story. I think that story is a great segue to talking about how can we make sure that training is a part of our enrichment process. Like what do we actually do to make sure that we're doing this with our. And the first thing, which should not come as a surprise to anybody, is that we invite you to do some observation first, before you get into this, because like Emily said, training is always happening. You have already incorporated training into your enrichment process, whether you know it or not. And so let's first assess where we are. And one of the ways that you can do this is to identify those quote unquote rules that didn't involve capital T training.
I call these accidental cues and so a couple of examples that I have of that is Oso has an excuse me cue and excuse me means a human or object is about to be in the space that you currently occupy and it's going to happen and so you should move your body. That's what excuse me means. So I can say Excuse me with him way too close to the fridge door start opening the fridge door and he backs up.
We've gotten to the point where, because excuse me just meant things are going to be in your way sir, where I can say excuse me and he will just remove himself from that situation. It's not very far, it's usually a step or two, and he knows which direction to move depending on what the situation is. So if I am feeding him, for example, he knows, excuse me means, back up a step.
I need to be able to access the food bowl to put food into it. So that's one example of these accidental cues. I did not capital T train that. I just say excuse me to my dog when I need him to move because that's what I do when I need a human being to move. The other cue that he has, which I love this one so much, he has a You don't work there.
Cue. And so he and I go walking in a corporate office park once a week for our adventure walks, and I don't want him to get too close to those buildings. And so if he tries to get too close to a building, I was saying, you don't work there, and I would stop letting him go further in that direction. We could continue on in a different direction, he just couldn't get closer to the building.
And I did that enough that When I said, you don't work there, he would turn and change directions. I didn't try to do this. I did not give him treats for this. I didn't even realize, honestly, that I was doing it. I was just saying a thing. that I thought was cute to my dog and did it consistently enough that it turned into an accidental cue for us.
Now as you are observing, your own rules with your dog, you might find that you don't have very clear cues like I do. Like I said, I have excuse me, I have you don't work there, we have a whole bunch of other like rules that we have developed together, he and I, that don't have cues. It may be a little bit more difficult to tell. One of the reasons that I can see his accidental cues really easily is that I interact with him very, very consistently. It's almost like animal behavior and training is my job or something. So because I interact very, very consistently with him, I have a lot of these accidental cues with him.
We have a lot of these quote unquote rules that we have together that he and I have just developed over the years of living with one another. So keep in mind that it might not be as clean cut. as the examples that I gave because I've been living with my dog for eight years and I very consistently interact with him.
[00:36:09] Emily: The next step is to assess whatever training you're doing to see if it's, if it's, Reducing harm and increasing welfare and well being or not. And that's true whether you are a capital T training fan or if you are like Allie and I and you prefer the train as you go method or whether you're a little bit half and half like regardless of how you prefer um, teach your animals life skills. We need to assess whether or not what we're doing is actually improving their welfare and well being. And again, like we are fond of saying, observe with your senses, not your stories. So the best way to tell is to ask the learner. And I don't mean ask verbally. Although, let's be real, I often ask verbally, even though I don't expect an answer, or at least I don't expect a verbal answer. But I, I look at how they respond to the, the training in the moment as it's happening. And I also look at the impact that that training has on their behavior over time as well. So, with that bird that I was telling you about. The way that I assessed it is I saw that even at the peak of his performance, his body language looked a lot less loose and, and relaxed as some of the other birds or most of the other birds that I worked with. There is a longer latency. And when he responded, and I'm not comparing his latency to other animals, I'm comparing them to his own latency for other behaviors. um, I did see. That after those sessions, he would be a little crankier. He would be a little more withdrawn. He would often just go back into his cage and hang out in the corner instead of staying out and playing in the playroom. And also over time, I saw a degradation of that behavior where he would get more cranky, the latency lock got longer. He wouldn't do the behavior as well. So I did see a decrease in performance. I mean, he was a very clear cut example, which is why I used him because when I think about this stuff, like he's the first animal that comes to my mind, But in general, if we see that an animal's just not that into it, we need to ask ourselves why, instead of being like, Oh, this animal is not behaving or noncompliant or stubborn or whatever labels we have for the animal. We should, we should really find out why they're not so super stoked about that behavior. And sometimes it's pain, like in that example with that bird, but sometimes it's just not the way that they prefer to do things. So if I want copper to get more exercise now that Brie has passed and she was his, his exercise buddy and I want to encourage more exercise through play. I'm not going to choose a food puzzle toy for him to play with that doesn't really align with his play style. Yes. I could shape him to use that toy. More frequently, but I already know based on his toy selection, when he has a choice that he has very clear preferences for what types of toys he choose to play with, what types of food puzzles he likes to use how, what types of play he enjoys interacting.
Like he's a wrestler to a lesser extent, he's a chaser, he's not so much a little shark, he's, he's not a, an ambusher. So I already know his play style. I know his toy preferences. I'm not going to try to shape his behavior to, to play in a way that doesn't align with his play preferences. I'm going to let him play in the ways that he prefers to play because it's his body, it's his life. Why is it important for him to do something just because I think it's cute or it would be more convenient for me to buy one toy over another? I don't know. That's maybe a bad example because the human matters too. But I'm always going to look for something that is going to meet both of our needs rather than something that ignores his needs to prioritize mine. So I think that's, that's something that we should always be thinking about when we're training animals. How are they responding to that? Not just in the moment, but also over time and is what we're asking them to do in alignment with physical abilities, with their preferences, with their play styles, with the amount of energy they've already allotted that day. All of those things, right? So if we are paying attention to that, when we're choosing our training protocols, our protocols going to sort of naturally. skew towards the ones that give animals more choice, control, and predictability.
[00:40:41] Allie: The next step of having training being a part of your, of your enrichment process is to determine is there a simpler way to train a thing that you want to train? We have said time and again that we are work smarter, not harder people. And so this comes into that.
And I have actually a very recent example of this. in the last month, as of time of this recording. In the last month, Oso has become an old man. We knew the day would come, and the day has come. He's become an old man, and so we had to make some, and by we, mostly me, since I'm his primary caregiver, because it's It's, my job to care for dogs.
So it's also my job at home. So I've had to make quite a few changes to his enrichment plan within this last month in order to catch up to where his body is now. I was on that like proactive getting ready but we still have time kind of leisurely pace and we are on a. oh we need these skills pretty darn soon and we need to start rethinking some of the things that we're already doing.
So one of those things was him getting up on our bed. Y'all, we have a fairly tall bed because it has this nice little mattress topper and that mattress topper makes it extra cushy for me and also makes it harder for Oso to jump up on it. We have stairs, for our bed. We had rearranged our bedroom furniture and that changed where the stairs had to be and he did not enjoy the change of where the stairs had to be.
So he had been jumping up and off of our bed just without using the stairs. The stairs were right there. I taught him how to use the stairs in the new location. He said no to those stairs. And and so there was a night. just a couple of weeks ago where he tried to jump on the bed and y'all he jumps on the bed at usually like 2 2.
30 in the morning in the summer ish time like if it's warm out he usually stays on his bed for the first half of the night and then jumps onto our bed at the second half it's awesome you know because it's not like I'm a light sleeper or anything but 2 2. 30 in the morning he tries to jump on the bed He only gets his top half up there.
He can't get his his bottom half up there. I'm trying to help him He is emphatically saying no, I do not need help and I'm like, that's just too much Patently false. You do need help and he got so frustrated with me trying to help him that he just went and Slept on a bed in a different room for the next like hour or two.
He was so frustrated with me. Anywho, that's not really relevant to this part. It is and isn't relevant to the story. I think it's just hilarious. As I was lying awake because now I had to like fully wake up to try to lift my 85 pound dog on the bed and he said no and wouldn't let me do it and would continue trying to jump, but not if I was near because he doesn't need my help.
I was now fully awake and I was like, all right, we have to really figure out this stair thing. Like I can't keep putting this off. And so I came up with a solution that I thought was going to work for him in the narrow space that we have with his big ol long body. And the answer is a 36 by 38 and a half inch platform that now lives at the foot of my bed and takes up the entirety of the space between the bed and the wall and we have to walk onto it in order to access half of our bedroom and it's fine because my dog is happy.
That's the most important thing in my life. So, all of this to say, built this platform, we then had to teach him that this was the new way to get up and off of this, of the bed. Is the platform. Stairs are gone, platform is in. And yes, I could have done the quote unquote, like, good trainer thing. of we do treats and we do shaping and we do lure shaping and we do all of these things and you know what we did instead?
Was Alex and I bear crawled onto the platform, used the platform to bear crawl onto the bed and Osa was like, Oh! That looks easy! And immediately followed us platform to bed. We just used observational learning. Then to get down from the bed, we then bear crawled onto the platform and then stepped, we did not bear crawl onto the floor, then stepped onto the floor and Osa was like, yeah!
That's better! So we just used observational learning once to show him he can get up and off of the bed using the platform. We have had no instances of him not using the platform since it's been installed about like a week, week and a half ago. So that was a situation where I was like, oh there are a lot of ways to train this.
I'm gonna try the very simple thing of observational learning and see if I can get away with it. And I got away with it. Awesome. That just decreased that training plan from like several, several iterations to like 30 seconds.
[00:45:52] Emily: I have a similar experience, except that Copper only weighs like 45 pounds, so I like have these you know, the stairs that lead up to our bed, because our bed is also high, and then the previous version of the mentorship program. I was like, this would be my training plan if I were going to teach Copper how to walk up and down these stairs because he doesn't like them. And they were like, Oh, are you going to film it? And I was like, no, I'm not going to do all this work. I'm just going to like lure him to stand in front of me, like in perpendicular. And then I'm going to pick his butt up and put it on the bed. And so like, I just lured him into position Picked him up, put him on the bed.
Same thing when, when we were ready to like, wake up in the morning, I would lure him into position, pick him up, put him down off the bed. I was like, I'm not going to do all that work. Are you kidding? No, I'm just going to lure him into position. And now that's what he does. He'll come and he'll line up in front of me and wait for me to pick him up and put him into bed.
[00:46:45] Allie: That's so cute!
[00:46:48] Emily: Yeah. I I've come full circle and I, I embrace the label lazy trainer for myself. I embrace that label. I'm 
like, no, I don't want to do all that work.
[00:46:56] Allie: And you know what? We both trained our dogs in a way that increases their welfare and safety and they can get up on the bed.
[00:47:03] Emily: Exactly. The other thing we did for Copper, which actually shared this on social media, but he had this really bad habit of laying on top of our sofa cushions and crushing them down and they were all getting misshapen. you know, it's such, it is such a privileged problem to be upset about the shape of our sofa cushions. it did make both Chuck and I a little bit sad. And so instead of like training him or managing it and not giving him access to the sofa, when we leave the house, we just lay the cushions down flat so that when he lays on them, he like flattens them out for us. And when we get home, we just put the sofa cushions back upright and they look beautiful.
They're shapely. They're in the correct shape. Copper helps us keep them, keep them in the correct shape. So yeah, just as simple as you can go. Go. But one of the things that you said that I love, which is also our next takeaway is try it, try the thing and see if it works. See how the learner likes it. If y'all had like bear crawled up the platform and also looked at you like you were from another planet and was like hard pass on that, then you would have moved on to something else to see if he would have enjoyed a different approach better. Right. So like, don't be afraid of trial and eval. This is where I think some people are afraid to try things because they're like, well, what if the animal hates it? Or what if it doesn't work? Or what if it makes me look like a bad trainer on social media? And, and I'm like, so what if it does? Like the, the thing that really matters is your learner's experience. And so if they tell you, no, thanks, I don't like this. And you listen to them and you modify and you do something else instead. First of all, You will eventually find something that they like because you're listening to them. Secondly, you're teaching them that they, that you're listening to them, which means that in the future, they'll be more willing to experiment with you because they know that you're listening to the nose. And thirdly, that's actually a really good thing to show to people is that like no trainer is perfect. Nobody has the perfect outcome a hundred percent of the times. And one of the things that makes a good trainer is not that we're always perfect. It's that. We're adaptable and we know how to pivot when things don't go as planned. Trial and eval friends. It's the thing to do.
[00:49:12] Allie: It's the thing to do. All right. So today we talked about What even is training? Sometimes it's bear crawling up a platform and your dog's like, yeah, that's a good idea. Sometimes you have to like actually do things and do proprioception work with your dog and pull out a clicker and treats and both are valid. As long as your learner agrees that both are valid.
Any whozles. So, in order to do that, first we invite you to do some observation work by identifying the quote unquote rules that you and your pet have together that didn't involve capital T training. What are your accidental cues so that you can see how training is already a part of your enrichment strategy.
After that, assess whether each training session that you're doing is improving or decreasing welfare and wellbeing. After that, is there a simpler way to train a thing that you want to train and try it. Trial an eval. If you get it wrong, you'll try it again and it'll be okay.
Next week, we'll be talking with Dr. Kelly Ballantyne about combating caregiver burden.
 If you're anything like me, you listened to a podcast episode, and the little gremlin toddler in your brain is like, the world needs to know this! So, if that's you right now, and while you were listening to this episode, you thought of someone who could benefit from it, go ahead and text them the link to this right now. I'm tasking you with being an enrichment ambassador so that together we can improve the quality of life for pets and their people.
Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.
Thank you for listening and happy training.