#108 - Debbie Martin: The Behavior Specialist You Didn't Know You Needed

What the heck is a Veterinary Technician Specialist in Behavior? Find out in this week's episode with Debbie Martin! Plus, sound sensitivities, risk assessments, and puppy socialization. Buckle up!

You can find the full episode show notes here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Debbie: we have a whole section on problem solving and prevention, and I tend to not call it problem solving anymore. I talk about creative behavior solutions. That's a new term that feels better. better to me. Like, this is just behavior. And we're going to come up with some creative solutions. Like, a lot of these are just normal behaviors. They're not actually, they're problems for the pet guardian, but not necessarily for the pet. It's a great behavior for the pet. They don't see any problem with it. So just coming up with creative behavior solutions so we can live harmonically together in a harmonious way. 

[00:00:34] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:51] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:00:53] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.  

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Debbie Martin. Debbie Martin has been a full time licensed or registered veterinary technician since 1996 and obtained her Veterinary Technician Specialist in Behavior, VTS Behavior, in 2010. She has been involved in the animal behavior and training field since 1998.

Debbie is a Karen Pyror Academy Certified Training Partner and faculty Emeritus, and is an Elite Fear Free Certified Professional. She is a contributing author and co editor of the textbook Canine and Feline Behavior for Veterinary Technicians and Nurses by Wiley Blackwell. Debbie is the co author of a book on normal development and training for dogs, Puppy Start Right Foundation Training for the Companion Dog, and has an online course through Karen Pyror Academy, Puppy Start Right for Instructors.

Debbie's combined experience in general practice and behavior specialty has fueled her passion for preventative behavior medicine and the Fear Free Initiative. Debbie is honored to be a speaker, content contributor, and subject matter expert for Fear Free and Fear Free Happy Homes. She is also a subject matter expert for EASE.

Debbie assists pet guardians with implementing veterinary prescribed behavior treatment plans and provides mentorship and coaching for animal behavior and veterinary professionals through Debbie Martin Animal Behavior and Coaching. She is the owner of Team Education in Animal Behavior. Debbie is such just a wonderful human being and I am so excited to hear more about what she does in this episode. I've known of her for a long time, especially with Puppy Start Right, but even I was like, I don't really know what a veterinary technician specialist truly does. And so it was really interesting to hear that perspective from Debbie. 

In this episode, you're going to hear Emily and Debbie talk about what in the heck is a veterinary technician specialist in behavior, sound sensitivities from a clinical standpoint, giving clients agency to do their own risk assessments, and new info about puppy socialization.

Alright, here it is, today's episode, Debbie Martin, the behavior specialist you didn't know you needed.

A content warning for this episode, there's a discussion of severe depression and a discussion about behavior suppression in children and teens using psychopharmacology. 

[00:03:33] Emily: Okay! Tell us your name, your pronouns and your pet.

[00:03:36] Debbie: I am Debbie Martin, pronouns are she, her, and I have one pet, and that is Chip, the Mr. Handsome Border Terrier, who is three and a half years old, and the most social little guy that I've ever had, I think, with dogs and people.

[00:03:52] Emily: That, that is delightful. I before the pandemic, I used to fly up to visit Nancy Tucker every year and I would babysit Benny for her. And that was my first experience with a physically, emotionally and behaviorally healthy border Terrier. And I just fell head over heels. They are. Such delightful little, little, scruffs. 

[00:04:14] Debbie: Yeah. They're amazing, scruffy, little, sturdy package, you know, like this small dog, but also sturdy and, and. Just fun. They're just super cute. I'm biased, of course. I can't help it. 

[00:04:29] Emily: mean, rightfully so, because you're right there. They are sturdy. They're just like these little tiny, like, beef cakes, just these little tiny beef cakes. It's so cute.

[00:04:41] Debbie: Well, yeah, and what's so interesting is that my breed before this was actually the Belgian Malinois, and I had a really, really sweet Malinois named Jasmine. People just didn't want to meet her. Like, even though she was adorable and sweet. Yeah, it's just a scary looking dog to a lot of people, whereas Chip seems to warm everyone's heart with his little silliness.

[00:05:04] Emily: yeah, I, I, as I had the privilege of spending some time with Jasmine and I, I think a lot of those kind of working breed dogs, they, they get unfairly pigeonholed as like scary and they're not intrinsically scary. Right. So, yeah, but, but yeah, the cute little scruffs are, are heartwarming indeed.

So tell us your story and how you got to where you are. I

[00:05:27] Debbie: Who is a roundabout way? I will say I had contemplated going to veterinary school when I Left high school and was starting college, but the thought of eight years of education was to seem like a lot and little did we know that we're gonna be Continuing to learn and be educated for the rest of our lives actually if you're doing things, right? so I shouldn't have been put off by that, but I Fell into family relations and human development. I took a psychology class and was like, what is this? It's so interesting. And so I actually became a preschool teacher, but as I was finishing up my degree, I still wanted to work with animals and I knew that. And so I worked for several years and saved money so that I could go back to school and. Again, was on the fence. Do I want to be a veterinarian? Do I want to be a veterinary technician or veterinary nurse? I looked into both of them and I really felt like nursing is what was my calling. Like I really wanted more of the interaction with the patients and the patient care. And then when I. I did go to school and became a registered veterinary technician in the state that I was in. I'm now a licensed vet tech in Texas, but when I started to work in practice, I think because of my preschool teacher background, I naturally was like, Hey, can we have an effect on their health? How they turn out, you know, like there's genetics, but there's also an environment that nature nurture thing about children. And I thought I need to look into this. And so I started to research about then this is in the mid nineties, you know, there wasn't as much about that kind of stuff. I mean, there was research out there, but there wasn't, there weren't as many puppy classes out there.

And and so. Yeah, I started teaching puppy classes and general practice and then started realizing you couldn't prevent all things and wanted to know how to help those animals that had behavioral disorders of some sort and needed intervention help. And continued my education along those roads. Simultaneously learning how to be a skilled animal trainer as well. Realizing that in order to address behavior concerns, we need to. figure out a common language so that we could communicate with each other with another species and using positive reinforcement training, heavily focused in clicker training. I, I, feel like I was lucky to fall in with a group in the mid nineties in Ohio, where I was living and working that was teaching clicker classes at the time I gravitated towards that.

They asked me to start teaching and, and then. continued my training field as well or experience. So and then in 2010 was when we had the first examination available for veterinary technicians who want to become specialized in behavior. So, I sat for the first examination and there are currently only about 30 of us in the world that are veterinary technician specialists in behavior.

And I was, One of the first ones. I was in the first exam.

[00:08:37] Emily: didn't realize that you were like first tier because you were the first person I met who had that specialty, but I didn't realize that you were one of the first to have that specialty.

[00:08:49] Debbie: Now, I wasn't actually the founding members. I was not one of the founding members that got to write the first exam and stuff. I actually had to take the first exam because I didn't, I think they had to have like at least seven years of experience in the behavior field to be a founding member. So example, Julie Shaw, Jeannie Price, those are founding members.

Marsha Ritchie, she's up in New York. So Linda Campbell, who was in St. Louis at the shelter there, did shelter medicine. You know, her entire life retired after 40 some years just recently. So yeah, we, and I'm probably forgetting someone that yeah, that they definitely, they were the founding members and got to, you know, create that first examination that I had to study for and take.

[00:09:31] Emily: That's extraordinary. I love it. When a group of people get together and go, let's make this better. That's, that's delightful. So our listeners don't know this yet, but you and I have known each other since I was a little baby behavior consultant, just starting out on my journey. And you were instrumental in my growth and development as a consultant, particularly in how.

We can work collaboratively as a support team to help people who live with pets who have both medical and behavioral special needs, that intersection between medicine and behavior. And we regularly have VBs on the podcast to discuss various aspects of that intersection between health and behavior, but you are the first person we've brought onto the podcast who is a veterinary technician specialist in behavior.

So first of all, can you please explain what that is? I know you just talked about getting that, that title or that certification. But what is it and what all is involved in getting that title? How, how, how did you, what was the process like in order to be able to sit for that exam and how does that role fit into the larger picture of a support team for animals who have special needs?

[00:10:45] Debbie: Yeah. So first, and I'll give you this resource too, that you can link to the, the notes to this podcast, but AVBT. net. So that's our website, Academy of Veterinary Behavior Technicians is what it stands for. So AVBT. net, and it has all the criteria listed there for what people need to do in order to apply to, to sit for the examination. But, In a nutshell, it's a minimum of 3 to 5 years, so it has a minimum of 3 and within the 5 years, you need to have accumulated a minimum of 4, 000 hours and 1, 000 hours, so a quarter of them have to be on what we call intervention cases, so they have a veterinary diagnosis. and treatment plan that's been prescribed and you're working with them on the behavior mod.

It's not just prevention things. So, the other three fourths of the hours, so 3, 000 of the hours of the minimum of 4, 000 could be prevention hours, you know. So, I, I was working in intervention at that time. So, most of my hours were veterinary diagnosis that had already been prescribed and I'm helping the clients with implementing that treatment plan and working on behavior cases with a veterinarian. So a minimum of 4, 000 hours. There's case reports that have to be submitted. There are a skills list that has to be submitted and video submissions of you working with a client as well as you training animals or working with animals and multiple species. So it's not just dogs, it's dogs, cats and and Another alternate species, there's usually a requirement of three, a minimum of three species that you have some work with.

It could be birds. It could be rabbits. It could be horses, you know, so it's the veterinary field. So we kind of expand it out. Not just, not just one single species, so that being able to adapt to that. And how do I see us fitting into that kind of overall structure? Well, you know, it takes a village, right? And you've got the veterinarian aspect of ruling out medical things or treating medical components in many states. Practice Act addressing mental health disorders in pets is considered practicing veterinary medicine. So they also need to be technically diagnosing a behavior disorder and suggesting a treatment plan. And as a veterinary technician, my role, just as they are the role in general practice, is to kind of act like a case manager as a liaison between the veterinarian, the client. And oftentimes I'm also working with trainers that are then seeing the cases in the field, you know, so, and, and, then the pet.

So there's all these components. There's the veterinarian, the. pet, the pet guardian, and maybe an animal trainer that's working with the pet. And I can work as that kind of central communicator to advocate for the pet, for the client, to make sure their needs are being heard and understood, as well as helping the client. The animal trainer who is working with that pet and client making sure that their feedback is being received and filtered and given to the veterinarian so that any changes to the treatment plan from the veterinarian can be made. provided. Many times, veterinary technicians, specialists in behavior are also the trainer. So sometimes we will actually be doing the behavior modification and working directly with the clients and the pets and the client, you know, the pet owner. So it's, there's, but then other times, especially if, We're working remotely with someone that has a, a pet that they're working with in another state or something like that, that I, I will assist animal trainers that are kind of stuck.

Right. You know, they're having troubles getting past something or just need another perspective. And they think coming from the medical field, because every. Issue every behavior that we see in animals has a medical rule out and often can be medical factors can be the cause of changes in behavior. Right?

You know, so in general medicine, we used to have. The acronym, you've probably heard this because you've worked in veterinary medicine too, ADR, which stood for ain't doing right. Like, that's the client would come in and he's like, I don't know, doc, he's just not doing right. He ain't doing right. Yeah, they couldn't explain what it was.

There was lethargy or it wasn't eating as well, or, you know. wasn't engaging with the family as much. So there's behavioral changes that are often associated with medical disease too. And we've seen links to things like sound sensitivities being linked to pain or exacerbating uh, pain, exacerbating sound sensitivities in dogs.

So yeah.

[00:15:44] Emily: I love all of that because yeah, so, first of all, I, I also came into behavior through that. medical field first like you did, but I did not have the same experience. My, my point of entry was with a clinic that didn't require their veterinary technicians to have any kind of certification or, or registration or licensing, which was in Texas, very common in, in the nineties, especially the early nineties and and also they worked with a trainer who was very much about.

dominance and force. And and so I, when I discovered like the behavior sciences and, and all of that, I'm not exaggerating when I say that it was life saving for me because the, the, The crisis that I was experiencing at that time is that I had a deep and profound love for nonhumans and I loved working with them and in every avenue through which I worked with them.

I could see that the way that we were interacting with them was maybe helping them physically, but. Hurting them behaviorally and emotionally. And there was a sort of mantra that I heard over and over again from many people is you have to hurt them to help them. And I had kind of reached by my, my mid to late twenties, which I started volunteering in a shelter and in a vet clinic when I was 11.

So by the time I was in my late twenties, I had already been exposed to this for over a decade. But by my late twenties, I, I was. despairing of life because I couldn't not work with animals, but also I was heart sick at the fact that I was often the cause or at least contributing to animal fear and shutdown and aggression, especially cases where I had met them as very young animals and I had watched their journey from just sort of like, what I would consider a totally appropriate amount of like apprehension to such severe.

Aggression that they were euthanized, and I knew that I had contributed to that journey that I had been a part of that experience. And so, so, yeah, I felt a deep despair. And when I found those behavior sciences. It's just the idea that we could help them without hurting them and that it doesn't have to be either or that it could be both.

I'm not exaggerating when I say it was, it was lifesaving. But what I find interesting about that is that when I was a child, the way that I worked with animals, just naturally because I loved them and I wanted to build a relationship with them and I wanted to have trust. I wanted it to be a mutually beneficial relationship.

As I was learning how to train, I found myself reclaiming ways that I had handled them before I had been quote unquote taught the correct way to handle animals through like that training world. So I think what you do is so important because I know I'm not alone in that experience. I know that there are a lot of people who get into the veterinary field or training or grooming because they love animals and they want to help them.

And I, I know I am not the only person who intuited. A lot of really like kind and trust building relationship building ways to interact. Maybe not as effectively at like shaping behavior because that requires skill, but you know You can you can get really far with just having a goal of building trust, right?

And so I love that your profession exists because it does show people That that you don't have to hurt them to help them and that you can in fact help them in a way that doesn't hurt them. And, and you can look at their whole health, not just their physical health, but their behavioral and emotional health as a component of that.

And so there are so many things that I'm just like pulling out of what you just said, because also. That, that idea that like I was, as you could see, but our listeners couldn't see, I was furiously nodding when you were like, pretty much if there is a behavior that is, that is harming the individual and or their environment, their family, there is a medical rule out.

We always need to keep in mind that behavior doesn't come from nowhere. And. And if animals are behaving in a way that hurts themselves or others, that's probably a sign that they are not well. And so, like, we really have to have a stronger relationship and better communication between the medical side and the behavioral side so that we can be as effective as possible by looking at the whole picture and letting everybody bring their, their, their aspect of expertise to the table.

Which brings me to the third thing of what I love about what you said, which is that you're the liaison and that is, that is such an important way to think about it because I think in our culture, we tend to think of various jobs within animal welfare in this hierarchical way of like, if you had the most schooling, therefore, you're the most important or your opinion carries the most weight.

And if you have the least amount of schooling, then you're the least important. And I think that is fueled by. pay, like tiers of pay, like how much people get paid, right? But that's not actually how it works because the trainer who's on the ground working with the client and the animal sees things that the consultant or the veterinary technician who specializes in behavior or the veterinary behaviorist or the regular vet isn't going to see.

And so their input, what they're seeing Their experience and expertise has equal value in that support team because they are contributing to that animal's overall well being and they do have expertise and knowledge and experience and, and, and, a perspective that nobody else on that support team has. So everything that you said was so important.

And I know I'm basically just like mirroring back to what you already said, but I just, I really hope that people hear that because it's so important what you talked about. And, and I do think that behavior consultants and veterinary technicians who specialize in behavior, we are the liaisons. It is our job to connect everybody in the support team with each other and make sure that everybody. is drawing from the same pool of information, right?

[00:22:04] Debbie: Wow, Emily, so much you just said was so profound and I love how you shared about, you know, your, your feelings of contributing to some of the behavior issues that you saw in some of the patients that you worked with and I've been there too, you know. So I tell people, and I, I tell people, you know, I, I was never a crossover trainer.

So I never used, you know, purposely used aversive techniques in my training, like pinch collars or choke chains. It just never appealed to me. And I stumbled into clicker training almost immediately in the mid nineties with a 12 year old shepherd mix I had. And we kind of went from there, but I would say I am a crossover. Veterinary technician, right? Because the ways that I was the go to in the hospital for those, you know, cats that nobody could handle dogs that were difficult to get nail trims on because I had really good restraint technique and I could hold them down and get, we could get, things done without sedation.

And, you know, I cringe at that, at some of the damage that I, emotional damage that I did there. Monique Fairchild, a fellow VTS in behavior who wrote the book Cooperative Veterinary Care, she talks about this iatrogenic damage that we cause through, you know, providing, you know, medical care to our patients.

And in the name of care, we are causing emotional damage. And what I love about the veterinary field is that we are seeing that shift. Finally, we're starting to see this shift and from things like low stress handling and the late Dr. Sophia Yen. And feline friendly hospitals, and I'm honored to be involved with fear free and the fear free initiative.

And it really has brought it front and center within the veterinary field that we need to be looking out for the emotional well being. Simultaneously, we are treating the physical well being of these pets, because if we're ignoring part of that, we are not doing our job correctly. It's a new standard of care.

[00:24:16] Emily: It really is. And it, and it makes me so happy when I go into vet clinics now. And I just see like, from the beginning from how they schedule their appointments, how they stagger clients coming into the lobby, even if they're not a fear free certified clinic, I'm like, This practice was unheard of when I was a veterinary technician, and now it's pretty common that vet clinics are thinking about how can we reduce stress from the very beginning of the process so that by the time we're seeing the animal, they're not already in a state of extreme toxic stress, right?

And that is, that is huge. And it's, and we've come a long way. Every time I. start to get cranky about how much change still needs to happen. I remember like what it was like in the 90s and what it's like now and I'm like actually I need to give us credit because we have come so far in a relatively short period of time.

Yeah, I want to circle back to You said iatrogenic change. And one of the things that I'm learning is how to define terms for our listeners. Will you define that term for our listeners who aren't familiar with the work of Monique Fairchild?

[00:25:27] Debbie: Yes. So I iatrogenic damage is is kind of like a unforeseen side effect, is what we wanna talk about. So you can have medications that cause iatrogenic, diseases, you know, so for example, putting a dog on prednisone can actually cause them to develop Cushing's disease. And that's iatrogenic. It's like a side effect of this medication that we gave them. So a side effect of the restraint that we're doing can actually be causing emotional disorders in animals. So this iatrogenic damage or emotional damage that we cause through our interactions due to our Lack of knowledge or lack of skill and in causing this. Not purposeful. It's not purposeful. But it just is a side effect. I think this is the best way to explain it.

[00:26:18] Emily: Thank you for, for doing that. I'm, I'm practicing getting better about not using language that people don't understand, which is a lifelong problem for me because I've been a word nerd since I was a baby. And so I often use words that I think are common and everybody else is like, Emily, nobody knows what you're saying.

So I'm getting better at defining my terms. So I appreciate that. Yeah. So I actually do want to ask you to talk a little more about the fear free certification because it is so much more common now. And every time I see somebody with those letters at the end of their name, I smile and I think of you.

So can you talk about like, just how you came about that. I mean, I know it wasn't just you. I know that it was a collective effort, but how you in the plural, how y'all decided to do this and what was that process like? And, and I've also seen it expand to not just veterinary clinic, but fear free for shelters and, and other areas as well.

So can you just talk a little bit about that while we're, while we're on the subject?

[00:27:19] Debbie: So Dr. Marty Becker, who is the founder of Fear Free, he went to a presentation that Dr. Karen Overall gave, and she was talking about the, the damage, the emotional damage we were causing when giving care to animals and how it was long lasting. It Somehow, the way she phrased it, like, really sunk in for him, and he realized, Oh my gosh, like, my whole veterinary career, I have been saying, it's just, it's just the side effect of what we have to do, you know and he wanted to find a way to change it.

And. Dr. Becker knows a lot of people and that was his, he brings people together and lets the experts do their thing. And so he, he saw a vision of creating education for veterinary professionals to start with, because it's because. He is in the veterinary field and he wanted the vets to kind of be the go to.

We needed to get them educated and on board first before we started reaching out to all aspects of animal care, including the pet guardians, right? So they have, there's fear free pets. And then there's Fear Free Happy Homes and Fear Free Happy Homes is geared towards non animal professionals. Fear Free Pets is geared towards all animal professionals at this point.

So they have certification processes for veterinary professionals shelter workers, groomers, pet sitters, daycare. Trainers within the veterinary field, even equine and and avian. And so I'm trying to think if I'm missing anything else there. At this point, but there's constant, you know, kind of continued spread and then so you have individual certification, but then you also have hospital certification and other facilities will start to be certified as they. That's their goal, you know, like, so whether you're a daycare or training facility, like, the goal is to be able to provide certification kind of across the board for a facility meeting a certain criteria. It's much more challenging to do something like that, and it's much more difficult as a facility to meet those criteria that are necessary.

So that is something that will come down the pipeline eventually and is a goal, but yeah, I, I just lucked out that I got. Asked to come to a meeting in Atlanta back in 2015 Hey, you know, we're getting together. We want to write this first course is flagship course for veterinary professionals.

And, you know, a room of us, several veterinary behaviorists regular veterinarians. I was representing veterinary technicians and trainers. And yeah, we had a room full of people who had a lot of knowledge, not just in the behavior field, but also just in general medicine and came up with the outline for the course and kind of took it from there.

And then, yeah. I've been involved with them. I continue to be involved with them actually as a

subject matter expert and content provider for

[00:30:19] Emily: think you've been involved with them almost as long as I've known you. It's been a long time. It's been a, it's been a, it's been a long time. I want to circle back to something that you said when, when we were talking about the intersection between medicine and behavior. And you mentioned that sound sensitivities are also often associated with pain and and yes, I, I definitely.

Relate to that because I have I get migraines sometimes and I have chronic pain for, from other health issues and I get more sound sensitive and, and light sensitive when the pain is really bad. And so when I first read research saying that, like, Hey, maybe there's a correlation between sound sensitivities and pain.

I was like, Yeah, yes, yes, of course. I mean, That's my lived experience. Of course, that why would that be restricted to humans, and and why would other species non humans not also experience that. And you've given some really wonderful talks on sound sensitivities and noise phobias. from a clinical standpoint.

And it's interesting because I think this is a behavioral phenomenon that a lot of behavior professionals feel stymied by and, and maybe a little intimidated by. And we've had Eileen Anderson on the podcast to talk about those behaviors from her perspective as a sound engineer. But would you please talk about the clinical aspect of these noise phobias?

I think The specific questions I have are how can people differentiate between auditory processing sensitivity that falls within like, quote unquote, normal, healthy limits, like variations of neurotypes, right, versus an actual phobia. And what are some early warning signs and preventative measures that pet parents can take?

Like, when, when can it become a signal that like, Oh, maybe this isn't just how my dog is built or how my cat is built, but maybe there's something medical going on that I need to take into consideration.

[00:32:19] Debbie: Lots of, lots of things to unpack there. First of all, you know, so we call it lots of things. Sometimes we say it's a noun, a noise or sound sensitivity, an aversion anxiety, a phobia, like there can be, there's all these terms are throwing around. And I think really ultimately, like when you see a profound one, you know, you're seeing it, but then there's that gray area, right? When does it become profound? Does it just start out that way or does it start slowly and develop and become very profound? You know, like yes, maybe sometimes it's there to begin with. But when I think about it, I think about it. Usually it's like an exaggerated kind of non gradiated or non graded response to a noise or sound that the animal has perceived and that's very Pretty subjective, right?

You know, so what's exaggerated, what's non gradiated, and, but, and there's also going to be a prolonged recovery. So I'll give you an example. Like, it's totally normal, like, if something fell off the shelf right now behind me and made a loud crashing noise that not only would I turn around, but my dog would probably wake up, who's taking a nap over to the side here, he would wake up and be like, what the heck was that? And then we would all. We'd both look at it, take a deep breath and get back to baseline very quickly. Now, a dog who's experienced a phobia of some sort or really high anxiety or fear with that will have run out of the room, is now Maybe in the closet, hiding, shivering, and stays there for another 10 or 15 minutes because they're not sure if it's safe or not to come out.

So this is kind of like the extremes, right? One's kind of a natural response, like something changed in our environment. I should notice that. Is it something to worry about? Oh, it's not. Okay. Back to baseline. Whereas animals that are showing sensitivities or phobias, whatever we want to call it are going to have a, a slower recovery process and probably a more profound response to it, but it's very subjective. What I bring it down to is regardless of what we're calling it, if it's having a negative effect on the dog's welfare and the, the pet guardian's welfare, it's something we need to address, right? So regardless of if it's an anxiety, a phobia or a sensitivity, if it's normal or abnormal, like. If we're seeing chronic and consistent responses like that are happening all the time, like there's construction going on in the house and it's taking a year to happen, that's going to have an effect.

It's having an effect on the pet as well as it's having an effect on the, on the pet guardians too. So yeah, it's, there's not a great definition because they're, they're vague to begin with. But that intersection between medical things and medical health too, so pain, I, I, I don't love that you have pain in your life, but I love that you've observed that, yes, hey, I actually experience, my sensory perception is heightened in certain circumstances when I'm feeling more pain. Like you've observed that change in yourself, and of course, with animals, like we talk about thresholds all the time with animals that are reactive to stimuli. Well, sound is just a stimuli, and so they're going to have different thresholds and pain, if we're fighting chronic pain or other stressors in our lives, whether they're physical stressors or emotional stressors, our, Fuse of tolerance is going to be shorter just in general.

We're already kind of reaching that level of what is acceptable before we have an emotional or behavioral outburst or reactivity to it.

[00:36:08] Emily: That is so helpful. And now I have additional questions. So, while you were talking, I was actually thinking of our own dog, Copper, who is 15 maybe going on 16. He's, he's 15 ish. And. In most ways an incredibly healthy dog for his age. He's very, he's still very playful, like a puppy.

And he's, he has incredible range of motion in, in, for the most part, like when he does a play bow, his sternum touches the ground. It's like he, yeah, he's, he's incredibly lithe for a 15 year old dog. But I had a bird who recently passed, his name is Bayou. And over the past few years, he started showing signs of what, it looked a whole lot like dementia.

And of course I looked up, I did, I was like, Hey, do birds get dementia? And the only paper was like, birds don't have a specific gene that humans with Alzheimer's have. And I'm like, okay, well, that doesn't necessarily mean that birds can't get dementia, but, anyway when he passed away, it seemed more likely that it was probably a brain tumor of, of some kind. But. Over the years, like his last few years, Bayou started doing contact calling that didn't seem to have a purpose through his entire life. Prior to that, he would vocalize very intentionally to communicate very specific things, and that sort of degraded as he got older and he would he would just start contact calling repeatedly for, for no apparent reason.

And Copper started having these huge exaggerated fear responses to Bayou's contact calling, by which I mean he would run to either my partner Chuck or me and curl up against us, and he would get hunkered down, his ears would be flat back, his tail would be tucked, he would be really trembling, like really hard, like shaking the whole sofa, and that was, that was new. And so it was really distressing because I have one animal who is doing a behavior because of an illness or, something not working out for him. Causing, the other animals have a really bad fear response. It was incredibly stressful to live through that.

And our vet diagnosed copper with arthritis in some very specific joints, which I had not really registered, except that when he would stand, his hind legs were splayed a little more. That was the only symptom because like I said, he is for the most part really light and has huge range of motion, but we saw that his.

His hind legs were a little more splayed when he would stand, and that was the only symptom of any kind of arthritis, but our vet prescribed Labrella and Adequan, and what was interesting is that his fear response to Bayou's contact calls really diminished, like he would, he would look towards the bird room with his ears back, and then he would recover and go back to doing whatever.

For So he is a really dramatic example of how treating the pain treated the behavior issue, but not every case is that sort of clear cut. So for, for behavior professionals who are listening, when they have a case where we've identified the medical cause, we're treating the medical cause and the, the behavior.

isn't improving. What are your recommendations in terms of bringing people onto the support team? Like what, what to you are the sort of criteria for like, okay, we need to get a VB involved, a veterinary behaviorist involved to talk about Behavioral medication, or we maybe need to try a different we need to talk to our clients about bringing on another aspect of veterinary care or other type of therapy, like massage or something.

What are your criteria for that for people who, who work with these animals?

[00:39:58] Debbie: Right, so when we identify a medical component, obviously we need to treat that medical component and and See how much of the behavior persists, but there's learning that's happening during that time. And there's associations that are happening and especially with sound sensitivities. I feel like there's, there's a lot of predictive associations that can happen. And so what I mean by that is, if you have a dog that has a fear of thunderstorms. Oftentimes, owners will report they know that a storm is coming before there's a storm because the dog starts to pick up on things like barometric pressure changes. It's windy out. The humidity has increased outside. It's we're seeing more clouds, you know, those things.

So there's not an actual thunderstorm happening, but we're starting to see things that have predicted storms in the past and have been linked to them. And so We all start to see these changes in behavior without the actual initial sound being present. And so with that learning that happens, just treating The pain may decrease some of that, but again, there's learning that has happened.

There's this fear response that has happened. So even when the pain is gone, the animals may still have fear associated with those circumstances. And so treating it from a behavioral perspective is important at that point, you know, and that, and whether that be calling in a veterinary behaviorist, it depends one on the severity and then also the. general practitioner's comfort level with treating whatever the issue is, whether it's a sound sensitivity or aggression or separation anxiety or, or what, whatever behavior disorder we might be addressing at that point. But if, if the clinician feels comfortable treating it, maybe they treat it and they refer it out to a positive reinforcement trainer that can help the client implement some of the behavior modification training to, to help. Provide better coping skills for that individual animal and for the guardians that are living with the pet. And prescribing medications when it's warranted, you know, so bringing a veterinary behaviorist in is always a good choice. Like I, I think It's never a wrong answer, right? But there's expense.

There's sometimes a wait time, you know, all those things. And so getting them started on the right foot instead of like, if they have to wait several weeks or even several months to get in things could get worse. If we're not giving them some tools to help them in the moment that are productive instead of non productive, some things may actually make things worse versus actually. Maintaining them or making them better in the meantime. So hopefully that answered kind of brought us back to that

topic yet. 

[00:42:47] Emily: I think it's interesting because I've had multiple professionals tell me that they would, rather not refer a client to a veterinary behaviorist until they know that it's actually going to be necessary or warranted because they're afraid of asking their clients to spend a lot of money on something that they don't know is going to be impactful and they're afraid of being known as the trainer who always sends clients to a VB.

And I. I really deeply sympathize with that because when I was in Utah, there were some trainers who called me a pill popper or a pill pusher because of how often I would recommend that clients worked with a veterinary behaviorist. I, I fortunately have a personality. That could not care less if people are talking smack about me.

I'm like, you go on then and talk all the smack you want. Like, I don't care. Right. But I know that there are a lot of people who are really concerned about their professional reputation if they just do the go to to the VB. So I think as you were talking, I was like, Oh, that's why I'm asking this question.

Not because I don't agree with you that like when in doubt, rope in a VB. But because so many people are like, when do I know that I need to, so that I don't always have to ask my clients to spend a lot of money and, or develop a reputation that really concerns me. Right. So I think that's, that's, that's actually the root of my question.

[00:44:16] Debbie: So providing choices, I think this is, this is what we do in veterinary medicine all the time. You know, so when, when an animal comes in and we identify A medical, or even a behavioral condition that needs to be treated. There's like, you know, the Cadillac plan, the gold star plan. This is, we could, we could do the MRI.

We can do all this. We can, or, you know what, we could start with this and see. And then if we're not making progress, then we need to do some more diagnostics, you know, and if we're still not making progress, maybe we need to go see an orthopedic surgeon, you know, so depending what the issues are. We give them options, like, do you want to go see the orthopedics right away?

Do you want to get the MRI tomorrow? You know, like, where are you feeling? This is the cost involved. Here are reasons. This is, this is a, we'll get our most answers from here. But if you're feeling like, you know, like, why don't we try these things first? It would be reasonable to try X, Y, and Z and give it two or three weeks.

And then, if things are, not better or worse, then we need to think about taking the next steps in the progress. So As trainers, we can provide that too. Like these are our options. I get that a lot of times I get a lot of people who want to do behavior modification with their animal, but they've got an animal that we'll, we'll stick with sound sensitivities that has sound sensitivities and they can't avoid the sounds. So, you know, like to me, I don't want to take their money when I know, like, we will hit a wall. Like I can help you to this point, but we're going to hit a wall. And I think the best step is to do this. I'm willing to work with you, but realize it will be limited because we don't have medications on board.

We're not able to avoid the situations completely. So your animal's going to continue to have these negative learning histories. So all the training that we're doing right now is great when that's an event's not happening, but it's going to fall apart when events happen. And if you I'm always concerned they're going to get frustrated with me, like it's not working, right?

And it's not working because we don't have an animal that's below their threshold for that fear and anxiety. And we, we can't get past it. The learning, the cognitive part of their brain is not working when they're having a sound event. In that moment. And so in order to get that cognitive part of the brain online again, we have to teach them things, but we also have to pharmacologically help them in a way to allow that learning to come through. Right? So.

[00:46:49] Emily: That was so validating to hear because in Pet Pro, our mentorship program, that's one of the things I talk about is like the medical model of like, here's the gold standard. If that doesn't work for you, here's what's next. And so it was really validating to hear Debbie Martin to say that's what she does too.

Because, because yes, that's, I'm all about giving choices, but really explaining the choices so that. They are, first of all, they can make an informed decision, but they get to choose their level of risk because I, I don't, I don't think it's awesome when we impose our risk tolerance on our clients. So letting clients really understand the risks of, of each tier and making that choice.

Knowing full well, what those risk means. It's not just helpful to the client, but it is helpful to the pressure professional for the exact reason you mentioned, which is, I don't want you to think that I am ineffective in my job because you chose a high risk strategy,

Right. 

[00:47:48] Debbie: Well, and then it's

important to also circle back with them as we,

you know, every couple of weeks, like, how are you feeling? How are things going? Do we need to go further? Do we need to take, go a step up? You know, like, are you feeling things are stalling out? We're just not seeing the progress that you want. And then what are my observations to, you know and feeling like, you know, We're not, I feel like we're getting stuck. What do you think? I feel like your dog's not continuing to make the progress we would expect at this point. And where can we go from here? And so they often have to hear it several times.

Like if you present it one time and then they say I want to go with this plan and we're going along with it. We might need to remind them again. Like there are other alternatives, especially if we're not seeing the progress that we would expect at this point.

[00:48:33] Emily: yes, that is one of the reasons that I love teaching people how to operate within an enrichment framework, because that is the last step of, of any of the enrichment frameworks that were created for zoos and then which we adapted for pet parents is like, the last step is reassess, readdress and do it again.

So we made our decision and we prioritized based on What was, what felt urgent to us in that moment, but everything changes, life is change. And so we need to circle back and say, how do we feel? Have our priorities changed? Have our senses of urgency changed? Has something else, a new need taken priority now because something else is, is more important. Or has our perception changed and what we care about difference now? So yes, that, that cyclical process of being like, okay, cool. This was our decision. We've been implementing this plan. How do we feel about this? Is this still working for us or, or do we need to change something now?

Do we need to adjust or adapt? It's just such a, an important part of building that really solid. relationship with a client that gives them agency to navigate what they're experiencing, right?

[00:49:47] Debbie: Yeah, and their, their goals may shift, you know, as they start to be like, they may think initially, this is, this is what success looks like in the end for them, but they might start to rethink that or maybe better, maybe less, you know, depending on the circumstances, like what's acceptable and and what is a good welfare for their pet as well as for them.

[00:50:13] Emily: Yes. And I know you know this because you received many anguished emails from me while I was in Utah, but I had such a hard time convincing so many clients and vets in Utah to work with a veterinary behaviorist or to, to build that support team. And there were many times that I was like, Debbie. What do I do help?

This is not easy, especially like when the laws change. So then, we could only do vet to vet consults. And I had so many feelings about that.

But but the, I guess most. Clear cut case for what we're talking about was a really good client of mine. She's become a friend. I adore her. But when we met, she felt very strongly that pharmacology was bad and she only wanted to use natural quote unquote natural or alternative options.

And we had this conversation, like, here's gold standard. Here's how I can be most impactful. Let's team up with a veterinary behaviorist. Let's get meds on board. But if you don't want to do that, here's how we're going to use alternative medicine that you want to use and do data collection to objectively assess if it's actually effective.

And she chose, plan B and she was incredibly dedicated to her training plan her enrichment plan and she taught all the skills and she did all the enrichment stuff and she did the data collection. She was a stellar client and it took a year. Of her dog almost being a full time job before she finally broke down and was like, can we revisit the conversation about meds?

 And I was like, yes, we can. So we did ended up working with Dr. Ken Martin and and, Started her dog on medication and what was really beautiful to watch and the reason I'm talking about her case is because as soon as the meds got on board, the dog was able to do all of the things that we had been teaching her to do for a year.

And that was eye opening for the client because she had been doing all this work and the dog had been learning all these skills and you could see that the dog just could not do them. She would understand the cue. And I mean, I know that I am, I am doing all kinds of constructs right now and I don't care.

When you looked at this dog, when you would offer her a cue, you could see her Know what you were asking and you could see that she just physically couldn't do it. She was like, I can't sit that long. I can't lay down. I can't go to my place. I can't whatever she just couldn't contain the wigglies, right?

And as soon as she got on those meds, she perfect, beautiful execution of all of the skills that she had been taught. And it was such a beautiful example of like, there's only so far we can go with training because it's not that she hadn't learned the skills. She knew the skills. She physically could not do the skills until that medication helped her neurochemistry be a little more balanced.

And I, and she, and my, that client was like, I have a totally different perspective on medication now. And I'm just going to tell all of my friends to be more open to it because it's, it was just so clear cut. It was just cut and dried, like before meds dog knew it, but couldn't do it after meds dog could do it all beautifully.

Right. And I think that really speaks to that component of like, There is, there is a wall, there is a limit as to how much we can get done without addressing the, the physical body that we all exist in. Right?

[00:53:37] Debbie: I've fallen prey to this myself, you know, and so is Dr. Martin, our first dog that we had, Ileana, who is the dog on the cover of the Puppy Start Right book. She was our first Belgian Malinois. And she She had a fear of unfamiliar dogs, a fear of unfamiliar people, especially people coming into the home. And we saw this at a fairly early age as a young puppy like eight, nine weeks old when she went after the UPS guy. So her go to was to go, you know, being a uh, I won't say, I am going to stereotype being a Malinois. Her, it wasn't run away and tuck your tail. It was. Charge ahead of it, drive it away.

It will go, you can be frightening and scare it off. And so that was her mode of action. And So we thought, you know, we're a behavior specialist. We can control a lot of this exposure. We can also do a lot of training with her and we did, but we couldn't control everything and she was one of those dogs that is like one single event falls apart. And it's like this waterfall, this cascade of like generalization to anything very remotely like that event now is something to be wary of. And so there was a lot of fallout that was happening and we just could not stay ahead of it. So finally, at like 10 months of age, we're like, Let's put her on medication, ya think? And so, amazingly, she did really well, and she improved. And so when we got our second Malinois, Jasmine, At about five months, she started showing some fear behaviors and reactivity to other dogs. She started acting weird with me, like all of a sudden she start showing avoidance and go hide in her kennel.

And I, I was like, I'm not doing anything. Like, why is she scared of me? And she's going through her developmental stages. And at that point, We said, maybe we should start her on meds right now, instead of trying to this through and we did, we put her on medication and it came around a lot faster. Like it was, it was a good experience for her and she then was able to go on and be my competition dog, you know, so we did rally, we did agility together. I, I don't know, like Ileana and never went into competition. Because she had environmental factors and I wonder what if we had started her earlier, maybe she would overcome that. But they also had different reactions to things. So Jasmine was not the go get it and drive it away. Hers was just be afraid and run to your mom and to climb up on her.

So the different reactions made it easier to manage Jasmine environments. That I wasn't worried that she might be overreactive and escalate to a bite or something like that. So, 

[00:56:30] Emily: Yeah. I

I think there, I, I love that research is coming out showing that like the earlier we can do the intervention, the more likely it is to, to be effective in a way that doesn't require them to need intervention for the rest of their lives. And I think that that is, A really important thing for us to know and to think about as we're working with our clients and also hold space for people who are genuinely afraid of putting a puppy on medication because I understand why that fear happens because we unfortunately have a long and storied history of using medication to suppress behaviors we don't like in children and teenagers.

And so, so, Psychopharmacology has been used in an abusive way for children and an adolescent humans for, for many, many decades now. And, and I, and I deeply empathize with people who have a fear about medicating young animals because of that history with humans. And the thing that I. Talk to my clients about when they express that fear is any tool can be used or abused.

Anything can be used in a way that is productive and nurturing or in a way that is harmful and coercive. And so we can acknowledge the ways in which medications have been Used abusively without throwing the baby out with a bath water and saying just blanket meds are bad or meds are bad to give to young, to young animals and children, and so I think when we are looking at using medication as a way to help body chemistry become balanced, that is a very different outcome than when we're using it to make an annoying behavior go away. Right. And that can be such a profound difference in the learner's experience with that medication.

[00:58:26] Debbie: love that. I love how you phrased that just a different perspective about it. And yeah, yeah, it is definitely one of those is a topic that is, can be quite sensitive sometimes and can be abused for sure. But Yeah, I think that also when we're looking at medication being used, that something that we say commonly or have said in the past in the veterinary field is that, or veterinary behavior field at least, is that if you're prescribing medications without prescribing a behavior modification and environmental modification plan along with it, it should be malpractice. Because a medication isn't going to teach the animal what to do. It's not going to help improve their environment in any way. And so without enriching their environment, providing good routine, meeting their needs, their social, emotional, exploratory, physical needs, all those things need to be met. Putting them on a medication is not going to do that.

It, and like you say, it's, it's just suppressing behavior and trying to suppress behavior and, and. That's not going to be effective if we're not also changing interactions, teaching coping strategies, and also modifying the environment so that those behaviors are undesirable behaviors are less likely to occur. And the ones that you want to occur are more likely to occur. Right. So, I

[00:59:52] Emily: Yeah, the analogy I use with clients is you have to think of your brain as a garden and the your neurochemistry is like the the fertilizer in the soil, right? So like the training is the gardening. We can plant seeds, we can water, we can weed all we want. But if the soil's nutrients aren't where they need to be, you're not going to actually get a lot of yield from all of that effort.

But if we amend the soil so that the nutrient balance is correct, then the work that you do will yield better results. Bumper crops, right? And so that's the thing is like, you can't just amend the soil. You also have to garden, but you can't just garden without amending the soil. You can, but there's going to be a limit as to how effective that gardening is going to be if the soil isn't amended.

And so I found that, that analogy is so helpful for so many clients to have an aha moment about why it's the combination of medication and, an enrichment plan. Intervention that that helps them sort of like have the right frame of mind of, of what we're doing and why we're doing it and how, how we're doing it. Right.

[01:00:58] Debbie: love it.

[01:00:59] Emily: All right. So let's talk more about puppies because we've been talking about medicating puppies, but also you have a, have a wonderful book about puppy socialization, which, puppy start, right? Was one of my sort of like, very worn out books. I think, I don't know how many copies I bought. Cause I kept giving it to people. And then we wrote a book and our book came out five years ago 

[01:01:21] Debbie: I have it on my shelf. 

[01:01:23] Emily: I can see it. I can see puppy start right, right there on your shelf.

[01:01:26] Debbie: Yeah. No, I have your book, 

[01:01:29] Emily: Oh, you have our book.

[01:01:30] Debbie: too. Yes, I do. So, actually, it might be out on my other shelf. Actually, the one that people get to see.

[01:01:37] Emily: Yeah. But almost immediately after we published the book, I was hoping for a second edition because I, we had learned so many things since we wrote it and refined not just our knowledge, but how we talk about things. And so it was almost immediately like. Oh, my gosh, I want to do over because there, I would, I would explain things differently.

Now that I know how people are receiving them, I would like to adjust how I talk about them or, oh my gosh, I've actually learned a lot since we wrote the book. And that was only five years ago. And puppy start rate came out for you 13 years ago, right? It's 2011. That's when it came out. I remember I was very excited when it came out.

I bought it as soon as it came out. So, so I, I can imagine that that's true for you and, and I would love to hear what are some of the biggest things that you've learned since the book came out and what would you change or update now?

[01:02:27] Debbie: well, you know, good news is a lot of things still hold true that are in there. I feel like when we wrote it 13 years ago, it actually was kind of ahead of the times, but the times is certainly caught up. You know there is certainly newer research about socialization that could be included in it.

More kind of like bang for our buck. And I would also say that, you know, A change in terminology, so some of the terminology that I use, like, for example, there's a part called tug of war. I don't call it tug of war anymore. We're not at war with the dog when we're playing tug. I just call it tug.

We're tugging. So just those things, and also we have a whole section on problem solving and prevention, and I tend to not call it problem solving anymore. I talk about creative behavior solutions. That's a new term that feels better. better to me. Like, this is just behavior. And we're going to come up with some creative solutions. Like, a lot of these are just normal behaviors. They're not actually, they're problems for the pet guardian, but not necessarily for the pet. It's a great behavior for the pet. They don't see any problem with it. So just coming up with creative behavior solutions so we can live harmonically together in a harmonious way. Also some of the ways that I would Teach behaviors would slightly change. So, especially the leave it. So, like, I feel like we just kind of fell back on the traditional, like, have a treat in your hand and wait for the dog to back away and capture that, which I find is extremely frustrating for a lot of dogs, especially if you've taught them targeting beforehand, because they're like, oh, you want me to target your hand? And then you're like, no, I completely changed the rules on you. Yeah, don't bump me. My hand now, I want you to back away from my hand. Don't you know, we're doing a new game. So I have completely changed how I teach leave it. And so that would be updated as well. And emphasizing some more management behaviors or strategies. We talk about management a lot and kind of avoiding the practice of the undesirable behaviors as much as possible. But some other important management behaviors that I teach pretty frequently now are like a find it game, which is just like one single treat being rolled out in front of the dog to kind of distract them and let them chase a treat and sniff it down and then eat it. I also do a lot of like a treat party thing. So that's actually one, I didn't bring it up when we were talking about sound sensitivities. That's one thing that they have found preventatively that will be effective for preventing a development of fear of sounds is when a dog hears a sudden sound is that if we just say something like treats and we toss out some treats, they'll start to learn that sudden sounds mean mom says or dad says treats and tosses out treats.

So we can use kind of strict classical conditioning there. And it, we pair those together. So teaching a treat party, also teaching about luring as a management strategy. So when I don't have the behavior ready yet for this level of distraction or whatever the situation is that I have a way to. Use a treat magnet as Emily and Ava. Would say from agility right from the start. I use a treat magnet to get them out of that situation and teaching. It's a skill, it's a behavior the animal has to learn to, to follow a lure as a management strategy. I also would teach some kind of like look at stimuli IQ. So not just, I actually rarely teach owners to ask their dog for attention anymore. Like, offered attention, I reinforce a lot, but I don't want them asking their dog to look away from things, because then they, they use it all the time. Like, don't look at that. Don't look at that is what they're saying. And I want the animal to look just. Let's change what it means to the animal and help change how they feel about it emotionally. And then I would also probably, I definitely would add some of these like fear free concepts and terminology like touch gradient. We talk about handling a lot and restraint training in Puppy Start, right? But I used to talk about it like, okay, touch the ear and then give a treat and then touch the foot and give a treat.

Now, I don't startle animals that way. I start in a neutral location. I touch the side of their body and I glide my hand up to their ear so I can assess how they're feeling about my hand getting closer to their ear instead of me suddenly just grabbing a body part. an unsuspected animal and pairing it with a treat.

So I do more of assessment that way and a more gradual approach to it. So, and then I think it would be important for us to teach the general pet owning population about the fear, anxiety, and stress scale that has been developed by fear free. And this. Give specific behavioral indicators of like, are they in a green zone?

Like go, things are good. Are we in caution, yellow zone? So it's the traffic light, or are we at red and what are those behavioral indicators and then also what should we do when we see those, so providing them with skills to like, this is when we need to do less, stop, stop, what we're doing and, not continue to move forward because if we're already seeing these kind of cautionary behaviors, if we keep doing what we're doing or do more, it's going to get worse.

We're not listening to the animal. So how to listen to them based on their body language. So lots of things. I need an update. I need to do an update. Obviously.

[01:07:57] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Same, like, like I said, almost by the time our book came out, I already wanted a second edition

[01:08:03] Debbie: Well, that's

how it is. Like,

We have a second edition of the Canine and Feline Behavior for Veterinary Technicians and Nurses, who I'm the co editor on with Julie Shaw, and I wrote a lot of it too, but even by the time the second edition, which just launched in 2023, was coming out, I'm like, Oh, I want to add this, or, Oh, I want to

add that, like, There's new

research. 

[01:08:27] Emily: Yes. Yeah. I think it's, it's just, I love books and also it's really hard for books to, because by the time they're published, we've already learned new things. So I do want to actually circle back because you, you beautifully like described all the things that you would change about your, your training recommendations, but you just like.

Yeah. Reese passed like, Oh, there's all this new research about socialization. Can you talk to us about some of that research that's come out since your book came out?

[01:08:55] Debbie: yeah, so recently, cause I'm, I'm doing a course for Karen Pryor Academy on sound sensitivities actually. And there were a couple of studies recently that did show that the more socialization puppies have, the less they are likely to develop sound sensitivities. So. if we do proactive positive experiences during their socialization period up to about three months of age especially incorporating sounds and different experiences in there in a positive way that they're less likely as adults to develop a fear of sounds or phobias associated with sounds.

So I thought that that was very interesting. Certainly this connection between sound sensitivities and pain, the muscular skeletal pain that is associated with sound sensitivities. And they found that those dogs that had pain, if we didn't treat the pain, they didn't improve in their sound sensitivities. So they had to be treated for both. Trying to think off the top of my head. Those are the main ones that I'm thinking of because a lot of them were covered I feel like we talked about some, there, well, there was another one on sound sensitivities, actually, that looking at that there may be a hormonal component to it, because they found that dogs that were intact, that male or female, were less likely to develop sound sensitivities, and there could be a lot of other contributing factors there, too, as well. But You know, estrogen and testosterone as kind of neuroprotective in a way as far as some of the fear centers. And we have seen that too in other studies like fear of people. And there was a study that looked at a fear of unfamiliar people, decrease the longevity of dogs. So they lived on average, I think it was like six to seven months. less than dogs that did not have a fear of unfamiliar people. So kind of that chronic stress throughout their life affected their 

longevity. 

[01:10:49] Emily: That's all. So it's such good information to have for people who have puppies because well, and also when you're trying to decide whether or not to, to neuter your pets, because I think we did a really good job of like the spay and neuter campaign to help, reduce population. And also I think that we need to look at everything in context.

Context is so important for everything. And I very rarely use extreme words like everything or always or never, but this is one where I feel very confident saying that context always matters. It's always important. And and so like, yes, in a shelter spaying and neutering those puppies as soon as possible.

So that we're, we're, paying attention to the population in that context. It's a good idea. But if you have the luxury of having a puppy from a really good breeder and you get to decide when or whether you neuter your, your dog you get to decide whether you're going to What risks are more important to you than others?

And all of it is a risk. All of it is risk assessment. All of it is. It's a trade off. But I think we need to do a better job of not judging people for their decisions and also not trying to push people to make a decision that we would make because that the research like estrogen and testosterone are neuroprotective, like, man, I can, as somebody who has hormonal issues, I, I can,

[01:12:15] Debbie: Yes, I'm at that age. I've, so I can attest to it too. Like estrogen is important and so is testosterone.

[01:12:22] Emily: kind of a big deal.

One fun fact that I learned is that estrogen actually plays a huge role in the integrity of our connective tissues. And as somebody with a connective tissue disorder, that was a major revelation for me, right? So, so yeah, hormones are a big, big, big, big, big deal.

They really matter. And so just because we have made a risk assessment for ourself and our dog and our environment doesn't mean that somebody else's decision Is, is incorrect. It's, it's different because they have a different risk assessment than we do. So I think that is, that's really eye opening and, and something worth contemplating.

All right, at the end of every interview, I like to ask the same set of questions. And the first of those questions is, What are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[01:13:14] Debbie: Wow veterinary technician specialist in behavior. We need more of them. And so if you're a professional, you're a technician think about pursuing, becoming a veterinary technician specialist in behavior. I highly recommend it. If you are in the animal behavior field of some sort, look for, veterinary professionals that you can team up with that maybe you have connection with, because I think that the more we do that the better services we can provide kind of all around.

Yeah. So, and then this kind of medical component to everything that we see as far as behavior. Can I add, I want to add, when we were talking about that before, there was something I wanted to talk about and I didn't bring it up. You were talking about the, how animal behavior professional consultants and trainers see the animal in their home environment oftentimes, or spend more time with them than they are seen at the veterinary office.

And that is true. And I think that's so important that you feel empowered to share your observations in a succinct and objective way with the veterinary professionals that. You work with because what you see is very important and communicating that to them. without judgment, without kind of trying to guide them in what they should do. So letting that, letting the veterinarian still make their decision about what to do, but letting them know what you're seeing and maybe what your concerns are is very important. As opposed to just telling the client what it is that you're seeing and expecting the client to communicate that effectively to their veterinarian. It usually goes something like this. My trainer said to come to you. To get some meds and you did not say that you said, I'm concerned about the way your dog's moving. These are the things that I see. It would be great if you could have a conversation with your veterinarian about it, right? So I did want to kind of put a plug in there that. Open up communication, get permission from your clients to share your observations with their veterinarian so that you guys can be communicating professionally about their pet. 

[01:15:23] Emily: Yeah, I'm just going to tack on to what you said because, and I, I think if I remember, we do have an implementation episode where we talk to people about how to communicate with vets. So I might be repeating myself here, but I had a huge learning moment because I used to tell clients, these are the things that you need to tell your vet that you're seeing, because if a client goes to the vet and is like, yeah, my trainer said that I, you need to examine my dog or my trainer thinks there's something medical that it doesn't tell the veterinary anything about what they should look for.

Right. And so I, I, because of my background in veterinary, I knew to tell my clients, make sure that you tell your vet that, and then very specific things about what they saw that would communicate to the vet what to look for, right? Or what diagnostics to run or whatever. But I learned from Mara Velez that that is not enough.

That you, it actually is really helpful to rehearse with your clients and have your client like play role play. Like, okay, I'm the vet. What are you going to tell your vet practice with me? Because you get to hear what your client thinks they're supposed to tell, which is not often what you actually wanted them to tell you.

So like that component from, I have to give Mara credit for that because that was. Such a shift for me in my, in my efficacy at getting clients to communicate with their vets, because when you practice with them, you get to hear what they think you said, and then you have the opportunity to refine that and be like, okay, this part was awesome.

But remember. This is a really important detail. So practice adding this detail in, and, and I, I have to give Mara credit for that because that, that made a huge difference is, is that little trick of like, it's not a trick, but the life hack of, of having the practice session with your client to make sure that they are effectively communicating with their vet. It made a huge difference.

[01:17:15] Debbie: and that's assuming the veterinarian's listening too, right? So we have to realize that because oftentimes there's lots going on. They, they have other rooms that they're thinking about or a sick patient in the back. And so, you know it's hard for all of us to, Actively listen sometimes and so they may only hear parts and pieces of it.

And I, I tend to be like, put it in writing type thing. So it can go in their medical record the way I want it to go. So I will often send something to the veterinary hospital in writing of short summary. So then. They don't have to remember how the client said it and put it in the record. It's there for them. So just another little hack that can help. It's great to have a conversation too, to clarify things, but some kind of objective assessments that you're seeing or concerns that you have and why you're suggesting to the client that they should seek their veterinarian's experience or help and assistance with it.

[01:18:11] Emily: It has to be both. It has to be both because we, we've had experiences in the past where we've reached out to a clinic. And when I say we, I mean, Pet Harmony's consulting team. We've had experiences where one of our consultants has reached out to a vet clinic with their kind of report.

And the receptionist and so he was panicked and was like, this dog is dangerous because they had never had any trainer do that level of communication before. And so it got telephoned to the vet as this dog is super dangerous and like, we're all going to die, like very chicken little like reaction.

And so. So, yeah, it has to be both because there needs to be a fail safe, like, yes, vets are humans and sometimes they're tired or distracted and they don't hear. And so you have to have it in writing. And also you have to teach your client how to communicate because sometimes the writing either doesn't get to the vet or it gets to the vet, not at all how it was sent or, or just gets missed. It gets lost in the shuffle. So the more ways that you can communicate something, the more likely that communication will have actually happened.

[01:19:15] Debbie: So lots of takeaways. Yeah. We added in more actionable items and goals, observable goals, I guess, and that, yeah,

[01:19:23] Emily: All right. So, what is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or enrichment? Your choice.

[01:19:29] Debbie: that is ever evolving. I think as a young veterinary professional and also animal trainer, I was like, tell me the right way to do it. I want to know how to do it right. You know, I didn't want to get the wrong answer. And that's kind of the cool part about behavior is. The animal sometimes gets to decide that the guardian gets to decide some of that, too.

So there's more than one right way to do things. And even, you know, I've watched I had the honor of watching a backstage pass at Clicker Expo. This is where they had multiple Of the faculty of training animals and, and I loved how like each trainer set up their training environment differently and they worked at a different pace and they delivered treats differently.

And I thought, look at this. It's all amazing. And it's all correct. But it's all very different, you know, and so it was wonderful. The animals were having a good time. The trainers were having a good time. The environment was set up conducive way for the learning to happen. And so it's very interesting just to see kind of that there's so many right ways to do things that we don't have to have the one

way 

[01:20:38] Emily: Yes.

There are many paths up the mountain. Yeah. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[01:20:44] Debbie: credentialed veterinary technicians to get the. recognition and acknowledgement of their level of expertise and better pay, better hours. You know, it's technicians, especially, so a licensed credentialed veterinary technician has done a lot of schooling and has a lot of education and and oftentimes doesn't, you know, Isn't respected by the veterinarians they work with or the team or the clients.

And so recognizing what they can do to make the animal's lives better as well as the veterinarian's lives better that they work with. 

[01:21:20] Emily: Yeah. I'm just going to say this. The veterinary field is undergoing, I think a lot of the same grief that a lot of the world is going through right now, but the corporatization of veterinary medicine is ruining everything for everybody. And like those big corporations just need to get the. F out. Like they, like, there is no reason that veterinary costs have tripled in 10 years. There is no good reason that veterinary cost has tripled in 10 years, but veterinary and veterinary technician salary super hasn't. There's no good reason for that except corporate greed and they need to get out of veterinary medicine.

And I feel very strongly about that. And yes, veterinary technicians need to get paid more. And the only way they do that is if people start, stop sucking the industry dry for their own, for their own financial gains. I feel very, very strongly about that. Okay. I will put my spice away and we can get back on topic. What do you love about what you do?

[01:22:18] Debbie: The continued learning, like it's, it's a continuous process. Here I was, and I talked about this earlier, not wanting to go to college for eight years to be a veterinarian, but I'm continuing, continuing to learn new things and new things about the field I'm in. It's exciting, you know, to look back and see how we change and wondering where we'll be in another decade. So just the excitement of that.

[01:22:42] Emily: I agree. It is exciting to see all the changes that happen in a, in a kind of rapid fire. I feel like the concept of giving animals the option to opt in or out of, of their own care has just happened in this past decade. Like rapid change is occurring and it's, and it is really Delightful to see what are you currently working on if people want to either work more with you or learn from you? Where can they find you?

[01:23:10] Debbie: I've been working on lots of projects lately, and one of them is a six year project that is getting ready to launch in 2025 and it's through fear free. I have been creating with Dr.

Kenneth Martin, a canine and feline vet. Veterinary Behavior Program. It's basically four courses that you can buy. Eventually, you'll be able to buy as a whole package once all the courses are out. But the first part is Veterinary Behavior Foundations, and it is about 14 modules. It goes through things like learning theory and behavior modification terminology and training, you know, getting ready for behavior mod and safety things and all that kind of stuff and development of dogs and cats and how they perceive the world.

So very in detail. It's very much a graduate level course. The second course is veterinary psychopharmacology, and this is a big one. And and then the next course is fear, phobia, anxiety, and panic disorders. and that goes into different diagnoses and treatment plans for them. And the last one's aggression disorders in dogs and cats.

And so it is geared towards veterinarians, but trainers will be allowed to take this program as well because they need to be helping the veterinarians implement these things. So we're trying to give general practitioners who have an interest in animal behavior. The tools to treat some of these cases that don't necessarily need to be seen by a veterinary behaviors, or at least get them on the path, the right path while they're waiting to be seen by a veterinary behaviors. So having that knowledge and skill set so this is a long time project that is coming to fruition pretty soon in 2025 through fear free. I also do private coaching for. pet guardians that have a treatment plan from a veterinary behaviorist or a veterinarian. And they need help implementing that in their life because they're not all professional trainers.

And they also, I even have professional trainers who want me to help them implement training plans into their life. Cause sometimes it's really hard to be your own coach and actually keep yourself on track with your own pet because there's this emotional involvement. So. Debbie Martin Animal Behavior and Coaching and the website's debbiemartinabc. com. You can find out more information there. I also have been working with a startup company called Ease and it is called, it's easepetvet. com is their website and Ease provides online treatment plans for pet owners. Your veterinarian has to refer you. Your veterinarian is their client, basically.

They get a treatment plan and medical or medication recommendations, but you also as a client get a treatment plan based on your pets. problem behaviors that you're having and things that you want to work on. So that's for dogs and cats. This other, trying to, trying to make veterinary behavior care more accessible to the

general public, that it doesn't have to cost thousands of dollars, that it can be a couple hundred dollars instead, at least to get you on the right path.

That may, you may still need to see a veterinary behaviorist or, you know, have someone locally helping you train your animal. But at least it will give you kind of a, a guiding plan. It's

[01:26:38] Emily: Yeah, so I can't wait to take your courses, but also I am so excited that you brought up Ease Pet Vet because we've referred so many people to it, and I just brought it up. I spoke at the Dogs in the City conference in Toronto and And I just told everybody about it. I was like, I don't know if it works internationally or not, 

[01:26:58] Debbie: not yet international. It is just in the

United States right now, but it will move to Canada. They're focused, they're focusing on a couple states right now, which are mainly California, Texas, and Florida. So but they are expanding. So I think it's a, a,

great resource. 

[01:27:16] Emily: It will grow. And yeah, and there were a lot of Americans who attended that conference. So it applied to some people, but it is such an important accessibility tool. I'm so excited that y'all have been. creating that resource. So thank you so much for spending time talking with me. It has been such a pleasure.

And also just thank you for the profound impact you've had on my career.

[01:27:42] Debbie: Thank you, Emily.

[01:27:43] Emily: I really appreciate you, Debbie.

[01:27:44] Debbie: I appreciate you too and all that you're doing.

[01:27:46] Allie: Debbie strikes the perfect balance of having a depth of knowledge about science, research, and technical information, while also caring about accessibility for clients and other professionals, and also making sure that everyone involved has a voice and is being taken care of. It's just chef's kiss. Next week, we'll be talking about assessing risk for the safety enrichment category.  

If you're anything like me, you listened to a podcast episode, and the little gremlin toddler in your brain is like, the world needs to know this! So, if that's you right now, and while you were listening to this episode, you thought of someone who could benefit from it, go ahead and text them the link to this right now. I'm tasking you with being an enrichment ambassador so that together we can improve the quality of life for pets and their people.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.