Enrichment for the Real World

#114 - Sami Griffin: Beyond Performative - Effective Gender Inclusivity for Pet Professionals

• Pet Harmony Animal Behavior and Training • Season 10 • Episode 114

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What does gender inclusivity have to do with pet behavior consulting? (Spoiler: everything.) In this episode of Enrichment for the Real World, Emily Strong (she/they) chats with Sami Griffin (they/them), a cat and dog behavior consultant with a passion for creating safer, more inclusive spaces—for pets and their people. Sami helps us move beyond surface-level performative action into real, effective inclusivity that doesn’t just sound good, but does good.

From busting myths around sex and gender to sharing tangible ways to practice using pronouns and avoid assumptions, this conversation is packed with insight, empathy, and action. You'll also hear how the same principles we use in behavior work—intentional practice, meeting learners’ needs, and using a descriptive approach—can help us grow as inclusive professionals. Whether you’re already deep into this work or you’re just starting to explore how gender inclusivity fits into your role, this episode offers guidance, support, and that gentle-but-firm nudge to do better—for everyone’s benefit.


Meet Our Guest: Sami Griffin (they/them)
Sami (they/them) got a bachelor’s degree in music and gender studies (with a lot of philosophy). They worked as a veterinary assistant in veterinary emergency, in shelters in the foster and behavior departments, and with a Veterinary Behaviorist as a behavior therapist focused on behavior modification. Amongst all things animal behavior, they are passionate about educating people on queerness and how all systems of oppression are interlocked. If they aren’t teaching people about the animals in their lives, they’re likely teaching people about queerness and LGBTQ inclusivity, playing indie video games, puzzling, or embroidering.

Connect with Sami on Instagram or their website


TLDL (Too Long, Didn’t Listen): 

  • Mistakes are Normal – Nobody gets it right 100% of the time, and that’s okay. The key is how we respond: with openness, humility, and a willingness to keep learning. 
  • Behavior Principles Apply to People, Too – Just like teaching a dog to sit or helping a cat love their cat tree, changing our language and habits takes practice, reinforcement, and support.
  • Take a Descriptive Approach – Instead of making assumptions about pets or people, taking a descriptive, curiosity-centered approach will build trust, reduce harm, and create space for authenticity.


Links & Resources from the Episode


Going Down a Rabbit Hole?
Want more ways to expand your inclusive, science-smart behavior toolkit? We have more links to resources here. 


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[00:00:00] Sami: I, love that story every time you tell me because it is an excellent example of we're always trying to do our best with the information we have at the time. You did your best with your tools at the time, and now you know more. And, you might prevent that first harm from happening by realizing like, oh, mom is a presumption of someone's gender identity and how they wanna be in the world. And that's not to say you did anything wrong, it's just you're learning. We're all learning. And also recognizing that we all make mistakes. Like I misgender people, even though this is a thing I'm very passionate about because I'm a human and sometimes my brain is overwhelmed. And so, when you make a mistake, which we all will make mistakes, take a moment, take a deep breath, don't make it a big deal. Apologize, say sorry, you are a great cat parent. Like, just fix it. Just just move on and fix it and then go home and practice and say, oh, this person's name is blah, blah, blah, and they are a cat parent and they love their cat Charm, which is my late cat. So, that practicing piece too, of both practicing a gender neutral framework and practicing fixing mistakes as they happen. 

[00:01:10] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:28] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:30] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:50] Emily: The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Sami Griffin. Sami got a bachelor's degree in music and gender studies with a lot of philosophy. They worked as a veterinary assistant in veterinary emergency medicine, in shelters, in the foster and behavior departments, and with a veterinary behaviorist as a behavior therapist focused on behavior modification.

Most of their experience is in working with cats and dogs with fear and anxiety, animal and or human directed aggression, separation related behaviors and compulsive behaviors. Amongst all things animal behavior, they're passionate about educating people on queerness and how all systems of oppression are interlocked.

If they aren't teaching people about the animals in their lives, they're likely teaching people about queerness and queer inclusivity playing indie video games, puzzling, or embroidering. Fun fact, Sami's right arm is reserved for only cat tattoos. They currently have five from four different artists.

What I love about Sami is their fierce commitment to supporting others in their learning journeys without judgment or pressure. In this episode, you're gonna hear us talk about Everything's a spectrum, it turns out behavioral principles apply to everything, who knew? This one time when I was accidentally supportive, listen to your learners and believe them, and do non-humans have gender? Alright, let's get into it.

All right. Tell us your name, pronouns, and pets. 

[00:03:19] Sami: Hi! I'm Sami Griffin.. Uh, my pronouns are they, them, theirs, and right now I just have one perfect little cat named Sushi, and she's a little tuxedo.

[00:03:27] Emily: And I think we can all agree that Sushi is legit adorbs. I feel like that's, yeah. Yeah. Her official title is Legit Adorbs. So tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:37] Sami: What a good question. I don't know how I got where I am, but here's the vague story. In college I studied gender studies and music. And now I don't do that, but I found myself into animal rescue. I fostered kittens my senior year of college and fell head over heels, over little beans. And then over the past, like eight or so years, I've worked in some shelters and foster and behavior departments as a veterinary assistant, I did half a vet tech degree before 2020 happened, and I stopped that. And then I worked for a veterinary behaviorist for a while, doing all the things I love of complex behavior. And now I have my own business where I get to help people, and neuro divergent people with their fun complex pets.

[00:04:21] Emily: Yeah, I've, I've said this before on other episodes of the podcast, and I'll say it again. While I enjoy having people who are experts in their field come onto the podcast. In the first place that's not always financially feasible, and in the second place they can bring us a lot of great information, but they don't necessarily know how to speak specifically to our community.

And so, I actually prefer bringing people on who aren't necessarily experts in another field, they're experts in this field who also have kind of specialized knowledge in a parallel field. And so they can like tie in and bring back that knowledge into our field and speak to our community. And that's why I'm so excited to have you on the podcast because that is exactly what you do.

Your expertise is in this field. And then you also have like. S special interest, special knowledge in gender studies, and then you get to help us understand how to apply that to our field and our community. And I love our relationship because it's just a great example of how equitable and reciprocal teacher learner dynamics can be.

Because obviously I met you through Pet Pro where in that context I take on more of a teaching and mentoring role and you take on more of a student role. And yet I've learned so much about so many things from you. And one of the most life-changing and validating things I've learned from you is how to better articulate my own gender identity.

Like you helped me with that in a way that nobody else has, and. And so like I'm just, I'm really excited to have you on today to talk about gender issues and specifically why they matter in our profession and how we can develop and cultivate an awareness of them in our profession. So first, let's start with the basics. What is the difference between sex and gender?

[00:06:13] Sami: So you say it's basics, but it's not, it's so very complex, but I will give the, the brief rundown of it. Sex is physical characteristics including like chromosomes, genitalia, body hormones, all of the things. And gender is the expression. Well, I'll say gender identity is your gender expression and how you, how you exist into the world and wanna be perceived. And neither of them are binary in any way, shape, or form. Sex is so wildly expansive just from the fact that like no one, no one has the same hormone levels as anyone else. No one has the exact same situation as everyone else. And same with gender. It is wildly expansive something that all I will say a lot is assigned at birth. And so assigned at birth is really the sex that you were assigned when you were born based on external factors. Not any internal factors going on, it's just what do you look like? And then gender identity is what, what are you socially, culturally, what do you wanna be, who do you think you are in a polite 

[00:07:20] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, I think maybe the basics was the wrong word. Maybe we can say the foundations, which are still obviously very complicated. But I kind of wanna tease apart those two things because as we just discussed, sex and gender are two different things. And and for me, like the big aha moment, like huge revelation for me was when I found out that I am intersex because I am chromosomally male, even though I am physic, I have external physical characteristics of being female.

I have, you know, ovaries and a uterus and all that jazz inside as well. But then I'm hormonally sort of like in between, like, I, I don't. My hormones don't behave the way one would expect for somebody who has a uterus and ovaries and milk producing organs. and so like one, one, like a a an approximation in my journey was figuring out how to talk about sex and gender.

Because I would use my non-binary ness of sex to try to help explain my experience with gender, which is that I never felt like I fit in with other girls when I was little and, and the words that I had for it when I was younger the, the way that I knew to, to describe my experience was I would call myself a tomboy.

Now I understand that that is a, a problematic label and, and we don't need to, to delve into that, but. I, I had a lot of friends who were behaved and exactly the way like we would expect little girls to behave in our culture, in our period in history. And they were interested in all the things that little girls were interested in.

And I, and I could relate to some of it. Like I was super into Lisa Frank, like shiny stickers were my jam.

So there are some things that I was like, oh, yes, I, I recognize myself in you and your interests, but for the most part, I felt like I was a different species. I was like, I don't understand you. I don't understand the way you tick, but y'all obviously have all of this in common. And I feel very left out.

I feel like an outsider looking in, and I wanna be clear. My friends never made me feel that way. My friends were great friends. They were excellent, supportive, kind, welcoming, inclusive friends. They were not making me feel that way. I just felt the discrepancy between their experience and their, the things that they cared about and the way that they moved through the world and my own experience and the things I cared about and the way that I moved through the world.

And so, like, I had a really hard time separating sex and gender because when I. When I first learned that I was intersex, I was like, aha, that is why my experience was the way it was. And then the next kind of mind blowing moment was like, actually no, I could be very solidly, I could have total alignment of my physical characteristics, my hormones, and my chromosomes, and still have a different gender. So I would like it if you just sort of like shared with the podcast what you shared with me to help me understand how to kind of tease those two things apart.

[00:10:29] Sami: I will try myy best to share what I shared with you. Feel free if I said it better to you before, let me know. As you were talking, I wrote down some things I wanted to clarify to you. So the like, internal sense of self is the gender and your gender and has to do with all of the things. And then your gender presentation is maybe how you want to present, how you try to present. And to your point of like the internal. and external are, are always working together. And we can't parse out, we can't fully parse out everything but the like, when you're born, when we're born in this, the society, I know are immediately placed in these gender roles that you're supposed to fit in. You're socialized as whatever sex you were s you were, you looked like from the outside. 

And so, people born assigned female at birth are socialized as women and as girls. And our, you've got the billion list of gender roles to fit into of like horses, which to be fair, are sick. And all of these gender roles and how we perform emotions and how we're allowed to feel. And then people assign male at birth the opposite, quote unquote, of, fighting, being mad, not being able to cry, blue, gI Joes, which are sick in a different way. Uh, And so. is all a part of it, of that socialization. we're young and as we're trying to figure out ourselves, we're try, they try to place us into boxes of here is what you should be into and how you should behave based on the things that we can see externally of you. So, anyone can feel like they don't fit with that particular experience. You don't have to be trans to be like, I don't, all this socialized as girls stuff. I don't feel as much like, I like to wear flannels, and chop wood. I don't know. All of the thing is like your internal sense of self does, it can be affected by, your physical being and your physical life inside, but it is also deeply social and cultural. 

[00:12:29] Emily: Yes, exactly. And, and I think that is, you know, when I started learning about how early that social conditioning starts, that like even toddlers start walking differently, like children who are raised to be socially male, square off their shoulders more and take heavier steps, and children who are raised to be socially female drop their shoulders and walk softly. I mean, the starts when they're toddlers, when we're toddlers, like it is so early.

And I think another thing that's really fascinating about that is that a, a lot of people think that it's, these traits are intrinsic to your sex, but that's really not true. Like if you look across cultures and across time our ideas of what is feminine and masculine have changed quite a bit. And like one of my favorite examples that, like when I'm, when I'm talking to people about gender issues, I'll ask them like, okay, so you see somebody who has perfectly coifed hair and makeup, and of course a big fancy like silk robes, and hoes, and heels, and they're very emotional, what, what's, what gender am I talking about? And people are like, well, females like women, right? 

And I'm like, cool. I just described William Shakespeare. Because in 16th century England, all of those things were, were the definition of masculinity. And and people, not, not just Shakespeare, but other authors of Shakespeare's time wrote about women being cold, and aloof, and, and heartless.

And men were the ones who had all the feelings, and the depth of emotion so, so like, it's not intrinsic, it's just that we are so steeped in our own culture and our, and our period in history that we believe that it is. And that to me is, is huge because we're not defining people by who they are. We're defining people by who our society in this moment in times tells people they should be.

And that kind of prescriptive approach to behavior ain't good for no one. so yeah. I love that. I I love that you, like, you helped me to sort of like be able to articulate those differences. 

[00:14:41] Sami: Identity away from all of the other things that make humans, humans, like intersectional approaches. Something I strive to, to be aware of and do all the time. We can't, can't parse out like our, our race, our social economic status, our ethnicity, our disabilities, our neuro divergencies, like all of these things also a role and like your, specific culture in which you grow up what, what your gender roles are supposed to be. And so, exactly like old timey William Shakespeare time might still be like, I don't know any, any range of period and race and culture is gonna have a different perception of what we're supposed to be quote unquote.

[00:15:26] Emily: Yeah. Another thing that you kind of helped me with when. When we first had this conversation was my grappling with, I didn't really have a good response for people who make an appeal to nature fallacy. Like, if you can have babies, you are female, cold.

Stop if you can, you know I know, first of all, I, I understand the logical fallacy because throughout nature, sex is way more complicated. Like sex is, I, I, I can't think of an organism that has binary really dichotomous sex 

[00:15:59] Sami: We're trying to make everything a binary, but yeah 

[00:16:06] Emily: yeah, I will too. But the part that you helped him with that I would love to hear you speak on more is how you speak to people who are like, no, but women have babies and men put babies in women. Right? Like that kind of like simple like, look, this is brass tack. Like this is not something we can argue about. I, you know, I have people who are very close to me who hold those beliefs. So these are not conversations that I can skirt around, so can, can you share with every, everybody who's listening to this episode, what you shared with me about how to reframe that for people?

[00:16:39] Sami: really wish we had filmed or recorded what I explained to you all those years ago or year-ish ago. The, the, my attempt at a general less complex answer is like assigned female at birth and assigned male at birth, may they, yeah, they have to do with external factors, but not every female can give birth, not every male can give birth. And then you add on like gender doesn't have to do with what bits you got, and what's going on. Like it is a separate thing, and especially if we think about why words matter, like male and female are sex, sex things, they're not related to gender. Women, men, non-binary, gender queer. That is the gender piece. And so there are plenty of women who don't have like uterus and there are plenty of men who don't have penises and there are plenty of everyone else that doesn't have anything up, quote unquote with society standards. 

So, not all women can give birth because not all women have all of the same parts, and that's not even including like cisgender women, meaning assigned female at birth, who also identify as women and are women. There are plenty of people who can't have babies. So it's just, it's silly to try to be binary about everything, because it discounts all of the ways in which humans are. 

[00:18:02] Emily: Yes. Thank you. Yeah, and I think to me the reason that this is so important is because if we believe in every individual having autonomy and having the ability to shape their own environment and, and their own identity, and, and make decisions for themselves, and move through the world in a way that works best for them, a fundamental aspect of that is not telling them who they are or what gender they are, right? 

But I think another reason it's important is because, when we, I've asked, I have asked people before who've been willing to have this conversation with me, why it matters so much. And when we follow that line of questioning, it invariably boils down to, well, how can we have a hierarchy if men, men may or may not be men and women may or may not be women then, like, how, how do we know who gets to be in charge of everybody else?

So at the end of the day, the fixation on, on reproductive, your reproductive abilities is about control, is about power, is about who gets to boss, everybody else around. And so like, yeah, no, that's, that's not okay. Like why do you care? The answer, the reason you care is because you care about who has the power and what if power had nothing to do with gender. It, it shouldn't, right? I mean, that's, that's part of what you referenced earlier about Intersectionality. 

[00:19:24] Sami: Having binariess and having hierarchies and, you know, misogyny is. oppression. It is an act of oppression. And so it is just like all other things of people who have that privilege, like being cisgender is a privilege. It feels as if you're taking that privilege away by removing the power of the oppression and of the hierarchy. And in reality, like gender expansiveness and, navigating social roles and kind of ins inspecting them and, and making them not have the power is not taking anything away from people. It is in fact making life better. But it feels as if it is a or way to lose control that really no one has control except for like the 1% which we can cut that piece out if we don't wanna be as sassy.

[00:20:11] Emily: No, I think we leave that in because we are in a period of history where it's really important to say this is not okay. This is not okay. We object, we object, 

[00:20:23] Sami: it is also very telling that one of the very first things that Trump did is try to, is take away rights from trans people because if there are less rights for them, ev it is more power to everyone else in power. Um, and all of those definitions, if you see them, are not realistic and based in no science and no academic study.

[00:20:48] Emily: Right. I think it is. Yeah. Like you said, it's very telling that like some, like some of his first. Actions in office were like, science can't use words like women, ovaries, breasts, trans gender, like erasing everything from science that allows us to actually study these really complex social issues that absolutely impact people's autonomy, their, the their ability to make choices for themselves in the world, their ability to work towards their own improving their own welfare and wellbeing, right? So like, yeah, it is not an accident. it's not an accident. That, that, that's the stuff that he went after first. And I don't mind saying on my podcast that is fascism and we need to openly object to that, because if we just stand by, it'll keep getting worse. And we can look at history to see that that is true. That when you don't oppose the early stages of oppression, of authoritarianism, it just keeps getting worse. Authoritarianism, they just keep taking more and more and more. And I really don't think we need to repeat the, the last century. I really don't. I really would love it if we could just skip to the end and, and not, do you know that whole twenties, thirties and forties? Can we just skip those three decades? That'd be cool. 

So, so yeah, it does, it does matter. It matters because at the end of the day, this is all about exactly what we talk about on this podcast, which is enrichment, harm reduction, improving welfare and wellbeing, giving learners their own autonomy, all that stuff that we talk about. This is fundamental to all of that. 

So speaking of which, how can we be more gender inclusive to our clients in an actually effective way, not just a performative way? And I'm gonna tell a story that explains why this question is, is so important. I, a few years ago, several years ago, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, it was like almost 10 years ago and I just attacked myself. I feel very old right now. I was, when I was still doing service dog training, I started working with the new client and I referred to that person as the dog's mom. I said something about like, oh, are you, are you excited to help your mom or something? I don't remember exactly what I said, but in, in a sentence, I referred to the dog's pet parent as mom and the client was like, handled it so beautifully, props to them, but said, you know, I, I really would appreciate it if you don't refer to me as mom. My pronouns are they them, and I, like in that moment, I was like, oh wow, okay, yeah, thanks for letting me know. I, that's really important. Yeah, thanks, I will, I will keep that in mind. I'll use gender, gender neutral terms, like parents to refer to you moving forward.

And this was before I knew that I was intersex. This was before I kind of was like, okay, I need to learn more about gender issues because clearly I have a lot to learn. So I was, I was accidentally supportive, it was not a virtue. I was just accidentally supportive. And later I was talking to a trans friend and they were telling me how when people, when they correct somebody about their pronouns and people then apologize and are like, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I'm such a jerk, whatever. That makes it worse. Not better because then you have to comfort the person who misgendered you. And it becomes this whole big thing, which can be really awkward and uncomfortable, and you're just like, look, I just wanna move on with my day.

And I, when, when my friend was telling me about that, I immediately remembered that interaction with the, I had with my service dog client. And I, I just like my gut clenched and I felt like sick to my stomach because I was like, I, I was accidentally supportive. I was accidentally inclusive. But that was a pure accident.

And I could have just as easily been not so much. Like I could have just as easily done the apology thing instead, and I wouldn't have known differently. And I, and I remembered other times when I have apologized to people for misgendering them. And I, I realized like, there are so many ways in which we can accidentally create a, a gulf between ourselves and our clients if we don't learn how to navigate these social issues.

And if, if I had service doc training is, I think even more precious than the regular work we do because there's a, there's an element of vulnerability in somebody who is asking you to help them train a dog, to help them be safe in the world, to help them you know, prevent catastrophe. And so, I could have accidentally done a lot of damage to my relationship with that client had I handled that wrong with the same level of good intentions that I had, but I, when I accidentally handled it right. So that was a huge wake up call for me, a huge lesson that like we actually do need to learn these things so that we can be better supportive of our clients. So, so talk to us about how we can do that. What are some steps we can take to make sure that we're really looking out for our clients?

[00:26:14] Sami: I, love that story every time you tell me because it is an excellent example of we're always trying to do our best with the information we have at the time. You did your best with your tools at the time, and now you know more. And, you might prevent that first harm from happening by realizing like, oh, mom is a presumption of someone's gender identity and how they wanna be in the world. And that's not to say you did anything wrong, it's just you're learning. We're all learning. So the most important piece is having the descriptive approach to everything. Like really gender inclusivity is. It's the same thing you talk about in every podcast is descriptive approaches work. If you were to assume everything at based on large gender stereotypes, you're not gonna, it's not gonna go well.

You're not gonna have trust in your clients. They have to then do the work of telling you like, oh, hey, actually I'm not this. If you just assume gender neutral from the get go and assume and ask for pronouns like in your forms that way you, you're working with information you have, you actually know is true as opposed to assumptions based on names and what bodies look like. And also recognizing that we all make mistakes. Like I misgender people, even though this is a thing I'm very passionate about because I'm a human and sometimes my brain is overwhelmed. And so when you make a mistake, which we all will make mistakes, take a moment, take a deep breath. Don't make it a big deal. Apologize, say sorry. You are a great cat parent. Like, just fix it. Just just move on and fix it and then go home and practice and say, oh, this person's name is blah, blah, blah. And they are a cat parent and they love their cat Charm, which is my late cat. so that practicing piece too, of both practicing a gender neutral framework and practicing fixing mistakes as they happen.

[00:28:09] Emily: Yeah, that, that kind of brings up another thing that I know you and I have talked about before, which is that I, I almost never misgender somebody when their pronouns are the same, like when I meet them with their current pronouns. Where I struggle is when I meet somebody and then their pronouns change after I meet them. And and that is in large part, it has, it has nothing to do with microaggressions for me. It's 100% that, like, because of my neuro type and because I had covid, I have really bad memory issues, and I struggle remembering new names regardless whether it's a pronoun or an actual name. Like my, one of my closest friends got married in 2005, and every time I talk about her, I have to pause and think about what her married name is. And we're talking about 20 years later and I still struggle to remember her married name. 

And so it, like, one of the challenges for me has been like when I have misgendered people, I see the kind of flash of disappointment on their face and I feel so bad and I'm like, I promise you that it's not that I don't see you, it's not that I don't want to acknowledge who you actually are and your real identity. It's that I really struggle with memory. So you helped me learn like very specific tips for practicing getting into the habit of, of using more gender inclusive language and also remembering somebody's pronouns. Can you share those tips with us now?

[00:29:40] Sami: I sure hope I remember them. Uh, Which is a fun joke on memory. One of the things that I I actually learned this from the first friend I came out to which I will be forever grateful that I chose her. She was an excellent person, but she, I. Like she taught me to. Just as soon as someone tells you something tells you something new, or you just meet a new person for the first time, use their name and pronoun in a sentence, like, like five sentences and walk around thinking about it.

And same thing if you mess up, if you say like, the wrong pronoun or, or a dead name. Just repeat, repeat five times to yourself and whatever works for you. So like for me, saying it out loud and writing work really well, some people can do it just internally. Some people do a combination of all of the things, but it's just like, it's training a new tool, it's training a behavior, and you just gotta repeat it as many times as it feels right.

[00:30:35] Emily: Yeah, it's almost like everything that we learn about training and, and behavior applies to this as well. Like, you need repetition, you need to set up your antecedent arrangements. You know, all of those things that we learned before. So 

[00:30:49] Sami: your your, friend's name is hard for you. It's, you're, you're pausing, you're doing an alternate behavior. Instead of rushing through a sentence you've trained yourself, take a break or take a pause, think about it and say it, and that's perfect.

Like a pause is so much better to me than a misgendering followed by something like a moment of like, this person is trying. I see that they're trying. That is huge. And I think a really good technique I.

[00:31:21] Emily: Thank you. And I, I love that you brought up that, you know, different learners have different modal preferred modalities for link, not even preferred. Different modalities work better for different people. And so like for me, the best way for me to remember a name or a pronoun is if I write it down.

And I learned this when I worked in music that because I was taking notes back when I was back in the day when I was a music journalist, was before people were carrying tablets around. And so I was still writing everything in a notepad. And I, I learned that if I was doing an interview with somebody and I wrote their name at the top of the interview and then I like wrote my questions for them, I would remember their name so much better than if I just had like met them and repeated their name.

And and so it was funny because, and it's the same thing with songs. I only remember song titles if I have written them down. And so like, I could have. I could spend an entire three day weekend with a band, and the only person's name I would remember from that band would be the one that I interviewed because I had written down their name, even though I spent three full days with the entire band.

And so, yeah, but like that technique is not gonna work for everybody. So I love what you said about like, fig finding out what works for you, and then being intentional in practicing that every single time. That is, that is really beautiful. One thing that I helped a, a family member of mine who was, you know misgendering, not, not maliciously I, I told her if, if you think about the, you don't know the person, if you talk, if you're talking about somebody that you don't know or like a general person, what pronoun do you use?

She said they, and I was like, yeah. political statement, right? If you don't know, like when I see Sam, the name Sam on a page and I don't know that person at all, I'm automatically gonna say they, because Sam is a name that is given to both female and assigned at birth, and male assigned at birth, right? So pretend that every name is like, is like Sam, and that's how you can get into the habit.

[00:33:30] Sami: Because every name can be gender neutral. 

[00:33:32] Emily: Every name can be gender neutral. Yeah. A better way for me to articulate what I was saying is there are some names that are, that society already accepts as being gender neutral, but if you just think of every name as being like those names, you're good to go.

[00:33:46] Sami: So one of the things too that is important to recognize, especially if you are cisgender and if you've never had to think about your gender identity, which I think everyone should take a little think about gender identity. But the intent versus impact is a conversation we have a lot, especially in regards to microaggressions and just like people that are different from you. 

That intent is in misgendering is sometimes malicious, and sometimes it's just humans being humans, but the impact is harm and it hurts, especially like every, every individual has a different level of resilience towards like misgendering and given any day, like I, so if I get misgendered at the store, okay, fine. If someone I care about misgenders me, that's gonna hurt a lot more if I don't have that trust in them to know who I am. 

So, with our clients and really any service, any service that you're doing, building trust is huge, especially with maladaptive behaviors that are really hard to live with, level of, of like discomfort or distrust between people doesn't feel good. And so, if the same way that, we think about believing people's experiences with their pet of don't need to see your dog doing, biting and growling at you, I trust that it's happening. And here's here, my job is to help you with that, also trust that you know your gender identity better than I do. I don't know your gender identity. I barely know my own, like I, we have to trust that they're gonna tell us, that they're telling us the truth, just as they need to trust in us that we're taking them, them seriously and we're listening to all of their needs. 

One thing that really matters is also the idea of trigger stacking or death by a thousand paper cuts. You were to go in and, you've had a really hard day, and if I were a client, if I were to have a really hard day, and then my trainer that I trust misgenders me during my appointment like that, that feels bad and it hurts, especially if that's like the 10th time I've been misgendered that day. That just whittles away the trust in, in the relationship. they were to not misgender me, that feels really great and it feels like that's how it should be. 

[00:36:07] Emily: Yeah, I super, super resonate with that because I, when I was younger, I mean, obviously I was decades away from understanding my, my actual sex, my gender identity, any of that stuff, right? My gender expression, like any of it. And yet, I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian community and every time we interacted with anybody from our community or my own family outside of like the, you know, parents and siblings, anytime, aunts, uncles, grandparents, whatever, at some point in the conversation somebody would bring up having children.

And every time I would say something like, I don't wanna have kids. I don't wanna get married, I wanna have a career. I wanna be a vet. You know, whatever, whatever I said they would tell me with the most, like condescending assurance. Well, that's just a phase you're going through right now, like someday you're gonna grow up and you're gonna realize that like, you really want kids, like you really wanna get married, you're gonna meet that person and you are, are going to change your mind because that's what women, women are here to fall in love with their life partner and have children. And you're gonna want, you're gonna meet somebody and you're wanting gonna have, you're going to want to have his babies. 

Right? And it was, it absolutely death by a thousand paper cuts. And I, it just got to a point where I couldn't be nice anymore. I couldn't be nice anymore. I was, it was so hard. I felt so much rage because everybody just said that with so much confidence. And I was like the absolute brass gonads on you that you believe that you know more about my internal experience and what I want out of life and what I need. I can't imagine having that level of arrogance. I can't imagine it. And yet it was everybody, everybody, every adult in that, the community that I was raised in and in my family, that felt like it was okay to say that to, to me over and over again.

And it's like, yes, that's right. You were right. By you, I mean, you know, the internet you are correct that nobody's beating me. That you know, it's not, it's not big harm, right. But it's little harm done over and over and over again, and it just wears you down. It sucks your soul dry. Right? And I can't even imagine how much more exponentially painful that is when you are growing up trans.

Whereas I was just non-binary, like gender fluid, right? But like, I can't imagine how much worse that is, is for, for people who grow up trans to, to just get that constant onslaught so I can, I can take my lived experience, and imagine how much worse it is for people, even though my lived experience isn't the same as theirs, right?

[00:39:07] Sami: in this moment in time, like it feels the, the people in power are constantly invalidating marginalized identities, especially marginalized gender, so transgender as the big umbrella term. And so it is like, it doesn't take as much right now to wear someone down and to lose that trust because like, I'm constantly at the end of my trust and like, one, one mistake is gonna feel really bad. And so it is, important to look at like the intent, or the impact is so much larger. And it's really, it's not that hard. Like it's, it takes some effort and it takes some practice to view the world in gender neutral and to practice new pronouns and names. But the impact of doing that work is huge. to mention, it also is a way to break down this, the hierarchy and the system that is controlling us all or trying to.

[00:40:05] Emily: Yeah. And I think it's really important to remember I actually was gonna bring this up earlier and I forgot, so like, I'm, I'm gonna bring it up now. It's important to remember that like our beliefs are, are rooted in. Okay. No, I did start to bring it up. We, we talked about this, but I didn't finish my thought.

Because we did talk about the fact that our beliefs are rooted in our society and our, and our period in history. And it's important to remember that that's not, that is not, our little slice of time, our little corner of the, the planet is not representative of the entire planet over the entire period of human history.

And I think that, like, what, what would be really awesome is if more people who struggle understanding these issues and wrapping their head around them, spent time with indigenous communities here in the United States. Because I, when I lived in southern Utah, I had the privilege of getting to interact with several people from the Diné tribe.

And now that I'm in the Seattle area, I've had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with the qʷi·qʷi·diččaq Tribe and some of the other Salish peoples, and I'm not even going to attempt to to use the words that they use, but all of these communities have a word that essentially means like two spirit, or multiple spirit, or whatever, and that's how they describe trans people. And those words have been in their, those those words and concepts have been in their communities and their cultures from time immemorial. So no, it is not true that every culture on the planet has a binary view of sex and gender, and there are actually several languages, current living languages right now in this point in time around the world, there are multiple languages that don't even have words for gender.

Gender isn't even a concept culturally or linguistically. So it's not even about like the past times when people didn't have to think about this stuff, so they didn't have to identify it. We're talking about right now around the world, there are cultures that don't think in terms of, of gender, and that's not to say that they don't have genders, it's that they like they don't feel the need to, to compartmentalize people into two or more specific genders, right? They, they're like, people are what they are. This is their name. I'm going to call them by their name or their, and their pronouns, if some languages don't even have pronouns, but the languages that have pronouns are just like non-binary pronouns.

They're just gender neutral pronouns. So, what we think of as being natural, or obvious, or fundamental to our ourselves as humans is not true. It's just our lens living in the United States in 2025. 

[00:42:56] Sami: One of the important pieces to all of this too is it is like relationship based. One of the things I know that we've talked about is when you do have challenges with memories, or other like disabilities, or learning disabilities, or just haven't figured out how you learned yet, which is fair in the world. It is okay to make mistakes as long as you, it is with compassion. And in terms of, you talk to people about it too. So like, when I make a mistake with myself, I know my gender. I'm not invalidating myself. I just, it's been a long day and sometimes my brain stops working. Likewise, if you're in a relationship with someone, and you keep misgendering them, or you keep like saying their dead name, is a time and place to talk about that with them because it is a descriptive approach of it's not just me, it's not just you, it's the relationship we have. And so that's it, I don't want people to be too hard on themselves of like, wow, I suck. I can never remember this person's name, or I can never remember, say their pronouns, right? Like, we're just doing our best. And it's okay to have those conversations in a respectful, curious way to, to find a way to compromise.

[00:44:06] Emily: I can't remember if you said this to me or one of my other trans friends that I've had this conversation with, but somebody said to me that it didn't, it didn't hurt as much when I made mistakes because, you know, not only are my intentions in the right place, but also that I have a growth mindset, and so it is safe. I'm a safe person to say, actually, here's a better way to do this because I'm interested in, in learning and growing and doing better. And so, that whoever said that, if it was you, thanks If it was somebody else and you're listening to this, thank you. Because that really helped me a lot to feel less anxious about making mistakes. 'cause I was like, okay, it's the same stuff we always talk about, take a descriptive approach, have a growth mindset you know, approach with compassion, like all and curiosity and all of those things. That just applies here. So, in that, in that context, I wanna bring up another learning opportunity because my current understanding is that as far as we know, non-human don't have gender, they don't have that level of metacognition or self-analysis or anything like that. 

And I see people talk about non-human gender when I know that they actually mean sex. And I'm not really interested in language policing people when I understand what people mean even if their language isn't technically precise.

On the other hand though, I think about the fact that like non-human can't be racist, for example, but people often see like a dog who's fearful towards anyone who has been blessed with more melanin than I have and confuse that with racism, right? And that's harmful for so many reasons, both in terms of how we approach behavior change with that dog, but also in terms of how we think about and respond to actual racism.

So I'm curious whether there's a similar kind of harm in conflating gender with sex in non-humans. Or is that an apples to oranges comparison? And if so, why? And how might you navigate a situation in which someone conflates gender for sex in non-human? Like, talk to me about how. What are, what are best practices for thinking about and navigating this topic?

[00:46:22] Sami: Thank you so much for bringing this up. I think it is, we may find out in a hundred years that dogs and cats and parrots have a very clear sense of gender, and this might all be different, but until then, we don't, I don't think they have any sense of it. And if they do, we can't ask them what their gender is, so to your point, when people say like, girl dog, boy dog, they're likely referring to their sex because of the physical characteristics that they see. And so, I really strive to say sex or female or male dog. When I'm talking about those sorts of things, is it potentially harmful to the dog? Eh, I don't think so. I don't know. 

But what is harmful is what happens when we have labels, and we put labels on, and gender rolled labels, is we see things differently. We see it through a different lens. And so, I think it is one, it's a good place to practice, not presuming, it's a good place to practice gender neutral framework Humans are so good at ignoring everything outside of the little box that we're, we're seeing. And so, I think not having those labels of, oh, it's just a girl dog thing, that, isn't helpful and it doesn't make a descriptive or objective approach easy. So I, it is, it is related, and I think it's all, it's all related as everything is In terms of actually practicing, or in terms of like existing in the world, I really try to work from a gender neutral LA lens.

So having like gender neutral language for dogs, I'll, like, you know, my cat is sometimes a creature. I practice new pronouns on or neo pronouns on. And, I don't, I don't tend to correct people if they are using those words because that's, that's a, that takes up time that isn't necessary. But I, use male or female and I don't necessarily try to. Put all the labels in. 

[00:48:16] Emily: Yeah. So I think that helps me because like, the thing about correcting somebody else is that basically you're giving unsolicited advice, which is a form of violence. I mean, granted it's a mild form of violence, but when you are removing somebody's autonomy, and their willingness to learn things, and you're imposing learning on them, I mean, first of all, that it goes against our belief about providing all learners with autonomy and agency. But secondly, that also makes people less open to actually hearing what you have to say because it was unsolicited. You're forcing it on your, you're imposing that on them. So it doesn't meet the, any of the kind of code of ethics that we have for least intrusive, minimally aversive or least inhibitive, functionally effective, whatever code of ethics you wanna use, right. So I, I think what, what you just said that kind of like gave me an idea or like an aha moment is doing the same exact thing that I do when clients talk about command or dominance or whatever. I don't correct them, but I just mirror back to them what they said, but using the language that I use, right. 

And I was like, oh yeah, I can do that, when, when people talk about like, oh, this dog's a girl, or you know, whatever people say, however people gender a dog, I can just be like, oh yeah, female dog. Yep. So, so that's really helpful of like, oh yeah, the same concept, just applying it in a different context. Who knew, who knew that all the stuff we know about behavior still applies when we're talking about social issues like identity. Awesome. Okay. Well, so at the end of every episode, I like asking people the same set of questions, the first of which is what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:50:05] Sami: Excellent. One reflect on your own gender identity, and I will attach some ways to do this. I think everyone should take a sit, and think about what is my identity and how do I come across this, and are there ways I may be different? And that is really helpful for all of us to then continue to break down these, these little rules. Two practice pronouns that you maybe aren't used to practice gender neutral pronouns. Tell your your cat, they're such a good cat using gender neutral pronouns every day, for a hundred times. uh, A hundred is excessive, but if you're like me, you talk to your cat all the time. And three just take a breath before, before trying something new, because breathing is important. We know this.

[00:50:51] Emily: I love those. Thank you. What is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or enrichment? I. To your choice.

[00:50:59] Sami: Really practicing gender neutral language and gender inclusivity is the, is a key part of the enrichment framework for humans and non-human. So, it's all connected. It's worth it, and it will make you a better behavior consultant or trainer to think of these things.

[00:51:14] Emily: Love it. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[00:51:19] Sami: Picking one is tricky. think, I would really like to see improved in our field, just more conversations about the intersectionality of humans and their pets, and really that descriptive approach for all learners, and taking account for the large intersections of all of the ways we are trying our best and are marginalized.

[00:51:42] Emily: What do you love about what you do?

[00:51:43] Sami: I love my job. I love working with people and they're complex cat and dog, and figuring out how we can make everyone's life better.

[00:51:51] Emily: Same. Yeah, that's, that's also why I love this field. What are you currently working on? If people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you?  

Awesome. Thank you so much, Sami. As always, I love talking to you. I love hanging out with you. I love spending time with you. Thank you for being here and helping us to navigate this really complicated but important topic. I appreciate you.

[00:52:47] Sami: Thank you. It's always nice to talk to you.  

[00:52:50] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony.