#118 - Amber Quann: Biofeedback, Beer, & Backpacks

What do biofeedback, brewery manners, and doggy backpacks have in common? Amber Quann, CEO and Head Trainer at Summit Dog Training, weaves them together beautifully in this episode of Enrichment for the Real World. Host Emily Strong and guest, Amber Quann dig into the nuances of dog relaxation, not just as a one-size-fits-all goal, but as a spectrum that requires thoughtful practice and an understanding of what each individual dog needs to get there.

Whether you’re curious about how to help your dog unwind after a zoomie-fueled afternoon or you’re wondering if your tiny pup can really enjoy a big hike, Amber brings science, heart, and a whole lot of actionable wisdom. Plus, you'll hear all about her Drink With Your Dog program that's making breweries more dog-friendly across the country.

Meet Amber: 

Summit Dog Training CEO and Head Trainer, Amber Quann, has been in the dog training world since her childhood days in a 4-H club. With credentials from Karen Pryor Academy, CCPDT, and TAGteach, Amber is passionate about helping people and their dogs adventure together in a way that's safe, fun, and behaviorally sound. She’s the creator of Drink With Your Dog®, a program designed to create more brewery-friendly dogs, and dog-friendly breweries. When she’s not teaching, podcasting, or presenting at ClickerExpo, she’s out hiking and hanging with her Papillon sidekick, Jameson.

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen): 

1️⃣ Relaxation Is a Skill, Not a Switch – Helping dogs relax isn’t just about asking them to lie down—it’s about meeting their physical, mental, and emotional needs before asking for stillness.

2️⃣ Trial-and-Eval Is the Name of the Game – Whether it’s sniffaris, chew sessions, zoomies, or training games, each dog has unique needs to prep for rest. Find your pet’s recharge formula.

3️⃣ Small Dogs, Big Adventures – Don’t let short legs stop the journey. With the right gear and prep, little dogs can hike, explore, and thrive alongside their big dog buddies (and humans).

Links & Resources from the Episode

🧾 For full episode transcripts: Arial | OpenDyslexic
✅ Relaxation Protocol for Professionals On-Demand Course
✅ Drink With Your Dog Program
✅ Full episode show notes

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Amber: It is like a big component for me is meeting the dog's needs first. And so when you have a dog that sat like, let's say a level 10 on that ladder. I wouldn't even initiate any sort of relaxation attempt, even a, a duration down stay until we have given that dog some support. And so I'm gonna teach my clients things like, okay, before you are planning for a relaxation event. We need to be meeting our dog's physical, mental and emotional needs in whatever framework that means for, for that dog at the level of skill and ability that dog is at that particular point in time, which could be lower in skill and ability than they were yesterday, depending on what is happening.

[00:00:49] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:07] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:08] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

 Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:29] Emily: The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Amber Quann summit Dog Training, CEO and head trainer Amber Kwan has been training dogs since an early age through participation in a four H dog club. Amber grew up competing in various dog sports, including rally agility, obedience, and confirmation, and started teaching others about dog training at 13 years old.

Amber is fascinated by the bond that grows between dogs and their owners when they adventure together and promoting the Special Connection is a significant part of Summit Dog Training's Mission. Amber is a graduate and certified training partner with the Karen Pryor Academy and a certified professional dog trainer, professional knowledge and skills assessed through the Certification Council for professional dog trainers.

Amber also has the tag Teach. Level One Certification is an evaluator for the A KC Canine Good Citizens Program and was voted number one dog trainer in Colorado and number 15 dog trainer in the USA for 2022 Amber's flagship program, Drink With Your Dog focuses on creating more brewery friendly dogs and dog friendly breweries around the country.

Over 90 plus dog trainers around the world have become drink with your dog certified class instructors To offer brewery manners courses in their communities.

Amber is a frequent podcast, guest news, article contributor, webinar presenter, and most recently has taught several live classes for Karen Pryor Academy and joined the faculty for Clicker Expo in 2025. Her current adventure partner is Jamison. A Papillon together, they enjoy hiking Backpacking walks in the park hanging out at breweries and nose work. I love how Amber has such a solutions oriented approach to working with humans and non-humans. She just dives in and helps people figure out how to make it work for both themselves and their dogs.

In this episode, you're going to hear Amber and I talk about why Pet Harmony and Summit Dog Training are basically sibling companies, why biofeedback isn't the end all, be all of relaxation, how Amber's Papillon tells her when he wants to go hiking on his own four feet or ride in Amber's backpack, and what program I volun-told Amber to create Next. Alright, let's get into it.

[00:03:50] Emly: Okay, so tell us your name, your pronouns, and your pets.

[00:03:53] Amber: Hi, I am Amber Kwan, and I use she her pronouns, and I just have one pet, Jamie. My little Papillon friend is my my sole dog in the household. and I love him. 

[00:04:08] Emly: I love Papillons and, and also I have to say, when Ellen first introduced me to you and the work that you do and your website and everything, I was so excited because I love Papillons and also so many people tend to treat small dogs with kid gloves and like not let them live dog lives.

And I, when I saw that, you're like, I go on mountain hikes with my Papillon, I was like, now we're talking like this is a little guy who gets like to do all the things as every dog should, should be able to. Right. So I love that.

[00:04:43] Amber: The. the ironic part of all of that is that I got the Papillon who would prefer to be treated with kid loves and is is, often questioning my choice to bring him on various mountain hikes when he would love to be snuggled up at home. And so uh, we compromise a lot by modifying our locations now, but also he has a wide assortment of Various carrying devices that support.

our different adventures. And he enjoys frequent breaks and in different backpacks of different sorts and bike baskets and things like that So we we have found our kind of compromise in the adventures we structure. 

[00:05:25] Emly: I love to hear that, and also I wanna circle back to that later because I have so many questions about that and and more about like how y'all navigate that together. But first, tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:05:39] Amber: Okay. I like to say that I have been in, in this industry. Long enough to have a midlife crisis every other day. Because I started teaching my first dog training classes at the age of 13 in my parents' front yard. After having spent the last few years. Training my own shelter mutt and uh, participating in four H Dog Club that allowed me to train and show in various dog sports.

And then at 13 I started teaching classes and haven't really stopped since. So I've done a wide range of things from working at. Someone else's business and then working for myself. But I started summit Dog Training, which is my current project almost exactly

10 years ago coming up in, September.

And this was kind of uh. I I wasn't expecting to, to, to do that for 10 years in the town I live in. Um, I kind of started it thinking, you know, I'll do this for a couple years while my partner was in grad school at the time And we just kinda happened to stay in the area and it just kept growing. and now it is a, we have a a facility, an acre property, and a, a big warehouse building as well as a, a secondary building that does our um, adventure camp drop off day training service. And I have a team of eight team members wonderful dog trainers uh, behavior professionals and client supporters who make it possible to do.

What we do every day and, and help so many people and dogs in Northern Colorado. And I'm just kind of you know taking it one step at a, time, figuring out how to be An expert dog, professional. But also my last few years have really focused as well on how to, be an expert business owner and boss and facility owner and all of those things.

And so, juggling all of those various hats is a big part of my current story. And I love every piece of it and just always trying to figure out what to learn next And what to prioritize learning next to do it a little bit better every day. 

[00:07:54] Emly: Yeah, I can, I can deeply empathize with that journey because a Allie started Pet Harmony also about 10 years ago, not quite 10 years. I think beginning of 2006, 2026 will be 10, 10 years. But we ended up, we were, we were collaborating on so many projects like our book and we had a shelter behavior project and everything that I ended up we, like, our lawyer was like, why don't you just, it's gonna be so much less complicated if you just. Work, like have the same company instead of trying to like share IP across two different companies. And so we ended up like merging in 2019 and we had a plan to grow. We didn't want it just to be the two of us, but then as we've grown, like it's, the learning curve has been a right angle for like, how do you manage a large team? How, how do you market for a large team? How do you convince people that your team members are as good at consulting as you are? And 'cause like, they're like, well, we wanna work with Emily or Allie or Ellen, and it's like, okay, but we don't see clients and we, like, I, I am a little bit offended that you don't trust us to, to have like, have taught our team how to do what we do.

So like that, cultivating a no, like, and trust factor for our, for our team members has been an entire journey. And so like, I don't know. It's interesting because we've been wanting to get you on the podcast forever, and I'm so excited that we finally are doing it because I do feel like our companies have been on parallel journeys, not just about like the business and, and team management part, but so many different ways that we're working in parallel.

So it's, it's almost like our, our companies are sibling companies And another reason that I say that is because we both care a lot about helping people to teach their dogs how to rela relax and rest. That's another thing that we have in common. I gotta say, when I saw your presentation at Clicker Expo, I had a hard time staying in my seat and keeping my mouth shut because I just wanted to like stand up and shout and cheer. I was so excited. It's just so good. I adore your approach to teaching relaxation because you're not just like, start with this dog who's climbing the walls and then do this relaxation protocol and then ta-da relaxation, right? So, so I'd like to start there, like, start this interview, like talking about how you think about and teach relaxation.

[00:10:18] Amber: Yeah, so it's really evolved over the years and I like to, I may have said this at my Clicker Expo presentation, but I like to attribute my kind of journey and thought process on it as a tribute to both my. Aussie that raised me and my Papillon, that is my current teacher and adventure companion because they've really taught me about two different angles. And of course all the client dogs in between that have allowed me to, to, to try things out and to figure out what was, working or falling short and the. The way that I'm thinking about it now is like, two pieces, like skills of like physically understanding the, the behavior positioning of, relaxation and I. Then the emotional piece and the the mental like capacity for relaxation and thinking about those as two important pieces that you can't separate completely. Because as we know, like you, you can't train behavior without the emotions involved, and you can't just focus on the emotions because you're still seeing behavior during that. So like, they're, they're all intertwined. But thinking about like. really helping our dogs understand the the physical position. Of like laying down still body. That's an important piece, our, dogs don't all come knowing that as a, a skill. So teaching that is important, but then also working on like, making sure that we are not keeping our dogs in, what I call work mode for too long there where we are saying, like, okay, if you're still on the mat, I am providing reinforcement and engagement. I think we can still build a really nice long downs stay. That's not relaxation. If we are not letting our dogs get that experience transitioning into like actually taking a nap and resting and different dogs will have different abilities to do that On their own.

And often we as humans can kind of like cut. the the cut, that natural process short by all of the things that we've, either been taught to do or are trying out. and so, I don't know. It's a, it's still evolving for me. I'm still learning, about it and and testing things out. but I'm so glad that the that the way that we were talking about it. at Clicker Expo was was resonating. 'cause that makes me feel like okay, let's, let's keep digging deeper here. 

[00:12:43] Emly: Yes. Yeah. One of the things that, I'm sure you just saw in my face that I feel like Really strongly about is that we need to be able to differentiate between a dog who's in just like a really nice long downs stay and a dog who is genuinely resting and we don't, I. I don't actually see a lot of that. I don't see a lot of that. across protocols, across methodologies. I don't actually see a lot of relaxed dogs I see a lot of dogs who have a rock solid downst stay And I wanna say another thing that I love about the way you talked about it at Click Car Expo is. that. Like, one of the things that I harp on a lot, like I, we have an evergreen course on our relaxation protocol, and I

think it is a really kind of beautiful yin and yang with what you are teach and why you teach it and how you teach it the context in which you teach it because they, they kind of serve two different purposes, but one of the things that we have in common and how we teach it is like biofeedback is helpful to a point.

And yes, getting a dog into a position that they normally are in when they're relaxed can be helpful. And also if we assume that biofeedback is going to happen just because the dog is in the relaxed position and we don't actually check in with the dog to see if they're actually relaxed. A dog who's flipped over on their hip and laying there.

Still super alert in a long down stay still isn't an a relaxed dog, even if they're in a relaxed position. So how do you teach behavior professionals to differentiate between a dog who's in a biofeedback position in a long down say, and a dog who is actually relaxed? What do you tell people to look for?

[00:14:27] Amber: Yeah, I, think I I try to think about like what other behaviors are happening here, and a lot of that for me comes to like, what is the dog's behavior telling us about their expectations in this moment, about like, what's happening next. So if the dog's in a hip flop down position, and they are, every, even every 30 seconds with a long duration, they're checking in

with their person. And with, with the kind of like anticipation of like, okay, is this, is this the criteria we're looking for here? Or is, is this gonna get that reinforcement duration that we're we've been going for, we're still. In that kind of work mode, not relax mode. If the dog's orientation is checking back in with the human consistently, kind of on the flip side, if we are seeing like really consistent scanning of, of the environment and fast movement, fast pace, and of course that's relative to what is possible for the dog or what's normal for the dog, but like. Fast movement scanning looking at something that just happened to

the environment are necessarily bad, but I wouldn't call them like. Nap mode, relaxation, where our dog is actually resting and taking an off time. They're just, you know, more more opportunities for. For us to kind of, inadvertently or in or on purpose, bring the dog back into work mode. And I think it's important here to couch this by saying like, our goals for the individual dog in the particular environment.

Absolutely inform whether we should be looking for true relaxation or whether we should be reinforcing any of those other behaviors. Like not every dog is capable of, of getting to full nap mode, relaxation in every environment right off the bat. So like, you know, we run that through the filter of our individual dog's training plan needs and our individual needs.

[00:16:26] Emly: Yes, exactly. Like you meet the learner where they're at, and you, you get them, you, your target for relaxation for them is what the, the level of relaxation that they are currently capable of. And then you shape deeper relaxation over time. And I think a big part of that too, like you were talking about, is determining whether or not relaxation is even.

The goal in a particular context. One of the things that I, that I tell people all the time is like, all right, if I were to set up a massage table in the middle of an interstate, how many massages would I have to give you on that table before you felt relaxed there? And I'm gonna guess that for the majority of people, the answer is there are no number of massages that I could get on a table in the middle of an interstate and feel relaxed, because you should not feel relaxed.

If you are standing in the middle of an interstate. You shouldn't, that's not a good place to be relaxed. Right. So like, and that's what we're asking of our dogs a lot of the time, is like, they are in their, their version of an interstate. And we're like, well, gee, wilkers, weren't you relaxing? It's like, because they shouldn't, they shouldn't be relaxed here.

[00:17:35] Amber: They're just operating out of their, their body's normal function of self preservation instinct here by not relaxing. Yes, absolutely. 

[00:17:45] Emly: So that's my next question is how do you help professionals and even, and even pet parents recognize when, what contexts are, is relaxation our goal? And one, what context are our goals different? Maybe it is a, a prolonged downst stay. Maybe it's something else. Like how do you help people identify context and have like a decision tree or a contingency plan in their head of like, if this context, then this goal.

[00:18:15] Amber: As always, it's on the backdrop of the big, it depends. But I think it, a lot of it comes down to understanding their dog's, kind of baseline confidence and comfort in a particular environment. And if this is an environment that our dogs generally display behaviors that indicate that they're feeling.

Calm and confi comfortable, whether that's like the relaxed body language that would be typical of their breed whether that's the ability to do relaxations, other type of decompressing. Decompression and regulating skills like sniffing or chewing those kind of enrichment type things.

If our dogs can do some of those in those environments, then that's a good sign. It doesn't necessarily mean our dog can relax because certainly our dogs might be using those things as tools to help themselves, but those are good if their dog definitely can't do those things, but they can do them at home.

They can't do them in another environment. That would be a, an indication for me that we're not ready to like fully relax here yet. So of course our dog's body language and ability to do other things that would be normally possible for them in an environment where they felt safe and comfortable.

And then like the environment itself and how changeable it is. If you're at a, a quiet. Coffee shop in the corner and it's, gonna stay pretty steady and quiet for the next couple hours there. That's a different environment than if you're at a a location that has an event starting in an hour and they have people bustling around and it's gonna get more and more intense.

So. Was like, we can descent, we can generalize relaxation skills to a lot of variety of things in the environment and teach our dogs that are comfortable going with us and relaxing how to do that despite what's going on. But that's not where we start. Of course.

[00:20:13] Emly: Yeah, so I think that's the way that we talk about it, which actually I learned from Ellen. I don't know where Ellen got it, but she talks about, and she taught us to talk about it in terms of ladders of escalation and deescalation. And I really like that approach because it's easy to operationalize.

Or have, have clients operationalize for themselves the rungs on their dog's ladder of escalation and the rungs on their dog's ladder of deescalation. So like, where is your dog at in their stress response cycle? And, and being helping clients to be able to like clearly articulate where they're at in their arousal level or their de arousal level is like, to me, one of the most important skills we can teach people who live with, with non-humans.

Right. So how do you talk about that? How do you help people figure that out? Because again, I think that's one of the things that happens a lot when people try to teach relaxation is they start with a dog who's at their peak of arousal and they're like, I'm gonna do a relaxation protocol and expect that this dog is just gonna come straight down to, to the bottom to be down at baseline again. So how do you. How do you teach people how to like, ratchet down instead of just expecting the dog to go from peak arousal to to minimum arousal?

[00:21:39] Amber: Okay. great. It is like a big component for me is meeting the dog's needs first. And so when you have a dog that sat like, let's say a level 10 on that ladder. I wouldn't even initiate any sort of relaxation attempt, even a, a duration down stay until we have given that dog some support. And so I'm gonna teach my clients things like, okay, before you are planning for a relaxation event. We need to be meeting our dog's physical, mental and emotional needs in whatever framework that means for, for that dog at the level of skill and ability that dog is at that particular point in time, which could be lower in skill and ability than they were yesterday, depending on what is happening.

So meeting their needs with, those exercise and enrichment options that are specific to what that dog needs, whether that's a decompression tile style walk first like a nice, let's work on moving our body and getting those natural enrichment opportunities out and about before we ask our dogs to be still.

Whether that's a different like human provided activity, like a, a chewing or licking or a more structured sniff time. Really like helping. Our clients know, like how to watch their dog's body language and see it change as they do. Those type of interventions is an important piece.

We're not starting our relaxation journey when our dog is having the, the most amount of feels in the in the, in the equation. And once. We start to see our dogs come down in some of those behaviors, we can start to add in little bits of those. I would call them more like the, the structured down stay or the the hip flop work to, to start working on slowing our dog's body down and getting that biofeedback piece in the puzzle.

But even still, that's not where like I'm expecting us to shift into relaxation yet. We're, we're just doing that as little like, okay, can we be still for a second? And then we can move again and maybe meet your needs, a little bit more and then come down and then we can start to layer in like, okay, like if you've gotten your needs met and you're starting to like, understand that the, the being still is a choice and an option available to your body right here.

Now, like, can we give you a little bit more autonomy to see if you can choose some of those behaviors yourself? Even for little bits of time at first. And I think it's also important for our clients to know that this practice doesn't start at a, a heightened environment. An environment that's not familiar with the dog, whatever level this starts at home, where our dogs can practice this relaxation skill at some degree.

Even if they start at 10, we know we can work back down to a one or a zero because they're gonna take a nap at some point at home. And that's where this kind of journey starts. And then we start to to layer in more difficulty there.

[00:24:56] Emly: Yeah, I'm actually going to share. My real world example of what that looks like. Because, because to connect the dots for people, because Miley is yesterday or no, day before yesterday, she turned four months old, and tomorrow I will, yeah, congrats. She's four months, she's getting big, she's outgrown her little hoodie.

And then tomorrow will be our one month anniversary of living together. And so we we're, we've got a month under our belts of, of learning each other and, and learning a routine and getting to know each other. And so, I am not. I'm not one of those people who believes that dogs should never get to experience Zoomies.

I am a person who wants to look at what the zoomies look like to see if they are like a distress coping mechanism, or if this is just a dog who's experiencing a high, high level of tres arousal. Right. And what I look for is if I see a dog who's doing like zoomie, zoomie, zoomies, and then they stop and they're wide-eyed and they have the like V-shaped commissures and the grimace on their face, and they're like, panting.

And the zoomie zoomie zoomies, that tells me that that is, they're not having a good time. The Zoomies are a coping mechanism. They are in distress. So I, if that is the case, I, I legitimately don't want those dogs to have those zoomies because it's not a good experience for them. It's not helping them. But when I see Miley's Zoomie, what I see is Zumi Zumi Zumi, and she stops and she's got the big C curve grin.

And her little forehead is like happy Biji wrinkles. And she's got a little wiggly butt and her little curly, cute tail flops from side to side. And then she'll do a play Bower, she'll paw slap, and then she goes, the Zoomies again. So that tells me that she's having a wonderful time and I would never want to deprive her of that.

And also I keep an eye on when it's getting a little too much, and I can tell it's getting a little too much because she starts trying to put her little 

teethers on us or our dog. So when she starts to get nippy, I'm like, okay, your Zoomies have reached the end of their usefulness and now we need to ratchet down. I. So the way that we ratchet down is we go outside and I let her run around. Usually she and Copper love running around together. I let them run around or if copper's like not feeling it, I'll go out with the flirt pole and I'll let her do the flirt pole. And then once she's pausing in our flirt pole game, then we'll do find it. That's the next ratchet 

down is we do a lot of scent work. And then when I can tell she's tired like her she's reached the end of her stamina for find It, which the way that I determine that is that she gets distracted more easily and she has a harder time finding food or scent trails that were easier for her. Earlier on in the session. So that's how I am assessing that her brain is tired. Then we go inside, into that, into the office and I'll give her the option of a lick or a chewy treat, and we call those long-term calming projects because the dogs can just sit with them and work on them for a long time. So I'll give her looking a chewy and I let her decide which one she wants.

And then when she's done with that, which she doesn't even necessarily always finish them, but when she is done with it then she comes and curls up next to me on the nest. She'll get some she'll like. Solicit some affection. Maybe she'll get some little, pets and kisses and stuff. She does a little tail wag.

She'll throw herself over my shoulder like a cat and watch what I'm doing. And then eventually she gets sleepy. When she gets sleepy, she digs at the blanket by my thigh and that's her signal to, that's the way that she requests that I pick up the blanket, she crawls underneath it and goes to sleep. So that is our routine for letting her, letting her get really highly aroused, recognizing when the arousal is too high and now we need to ratchet down. And that's how we ratchet down. 

[00:28:47] Amber: Yes. I love that. Really like specific steps like as far as progression, but also like you have identified like what it looks like for her when she's ready to move down to the next step, which is such an important piece with our, our dogs in, in this journey. Because if we are saying, Okay. yeah, now we're ready to, to move on, but the dog is still needing more of the other thing, then I think that's a a disconnect in our communication that we need to like, adjust and rectify, I think is also really interesting. In your example there where we're seeing that Miley's true relaxation behaviors look different than a, than the behaviors that you would see if you asked her to lay down. On the mat and stay there. And I, I know she's four months old, So that might be beyond her her natural skillset right now. But we could train that behavior and it would look one way, but the true, the behaviors that you see when you let her find that relaxation piece on as a result of those other steps, looks a lot different from like, scratching at the blanket to like asking to go underneath it.

And I think that's something that I try to like help our our pet dog students identify and, and notice is like when we are. Really wanting our dogs to turn off. Like it might look like our dogs getting up out of the position that they've been laying in to work on a project or even that we've asked them to lay in to get some still body.

They may need to get up and reposition and do some of those other behaviors like scratching and sniffing and fine and spinning three times in order to get truly comfortable. And what do we naturally do as humans? When our dogs getting up out of position, we say, no, hey, actually I asked you to stay down there.

I asked you to lay down and stay. And so then we pull our dogs right back into that. Like, okay, well you're giving me the input here, so I guess I'll stay here and keep my brain on and keep focusing on you 'cause you're, you're giving me the input. So, I think it's, it's just like such a great example of several, several important aspects here.

[00:30:58] Emly: Yeah, I, I love that you brought that up because that's one of the reasons that that's one of the things that we modified about the original care and overall protocol is that we don't require a down, we let the dog be in whatever body position therein, and then we let laying down be our litmus test for where the dog is at in their ladder of deescalation.

So by letting the dog choose their body position, as we're doing all of the steps of the relaxation protocol, they get to tell us when they're ready to lay down, and they get to lay down in the way that feels good to them at that stage of their deescalation. So, I have found that to be an incredibly useful thing.

And I will say that even though Miley and I have that really beautiful way of deescalating, and we've got this really well established routine at this point. I am still going to teach her the relaxation protocol, but for a totally different reason. And the reason is she gets FOMO when she's not get, doesn't get to be a part of the family.

And the way I differentiate between FOMO and actual, like a separation related distress is that when I come back in, she's immediately like, oh, hi. Or sometimes even before I come in, like, I'll come back in after hearing her throwing herself at the office door and yodeling at me. And she will have already moved on to something else, right?

So she's not experiencing distress. Maybe it's a low level of distress, stress, but it's not what I would call separation anxiety. But I want a teach her that everybody else in the household can be doing really cool things and she can still hang out and, and have a good time. So that's why I'm using our relaxation protocol, even though I have a dog who's already very skilled at rest and relaxation and also. I think this is a good segue into the next thing I wanted to talk to you about because even though she already has a good ladder of deescalation and even though I'm gonna teach her our version of the relaxation protocol to address her fomo. I also am really, really interested in taking the drink with your dog course because I also wanna be able to take her out in public and, and take her out to, to breweries with us.

And even though I have taught dogs to do that in the past, in the first place, I don't trust myself to be objective with my own dog. And secondly, I really, really wanna learn how you teach it since this is your wheelhouse. Talk to me about the drink with your dog course and why you started teaching. I wanna know that, but also like, what are the core principles and what to you is the difference between the skills that you're teaching in that course versus like. We really do need this dog to like be nappy time, right? So, so tell me all the things about it. 

[00:33:40] Amber: Okay. so the drink with your dog. project is something I, that first got its inception in 2018. I was already taking batches of my students to our local dog friendly breweries for like one week out of our like. Public adventure dog skills class. So we have we would have a class and that would be four weeks and we'd go to a different location every week. And one week we'd go to a local dog friendly brewery. And it was always super fun. We worked on, good brewery skills, but every time I took a batch of students there, I was always like, there's so much more we could be working on here and we just don't have the time because we only have one week out of this, multi adventure course that we did where we were going to different locations. And so that was one aspect where I was like, I need to expand this and, dive into this a little bit more deeply. And kind of at the same time, I was approached by one of my clients, my dog training clients, who was the, manager and a bartender at one of these dog friendly breweries in town. And they knew of my work through participating with their own dogs and their foster dogs.

And they were like, we're having a hard time. With the volume of dogs coming into our brewery, we feel like it's increasing as where people are coming and our staff don't know how to safely greet dogs and keep themselves safe and support the dogs and their humans. We wanna be a great dog friendly brewery, and we, we need some extra education. Could you come and do a workshop for our brewery staff on dogs in breweries And all of the different facets there? So I kinda had these two kind of angles come coming simultaneously. And so I, and they also were like, and also, we heard you wanted to host a longer brewery training class.

We'd love to be your, your first brewery to, to host you for that longer class with your students. So. I designed a, a workshop for them. We did a couple, versions, got some feedback from from them and then did a version for multiple brewery staff from different breweries coming in and really got a lot of awesome feedback about Like this is exactly what, you know, we need. We we want to keep being dog friendly spaces, but we're overwhelmed and not sure how to do this safely and successfully. And so in, in the workshop we practice skills like reading dog body language understanding how best practices for understanding how to greet a dog and then also how we can change human behavior around their dog's behavior through positive reinforcement and redirection.

So, a human visiting the brewery with their dog and their dog is doing something or the human is doing something that is causing their dog's behavior to be complicate brewery operations or interfere with the. The positive experience of another guest. How does a brewery staff member go over and have a productive conversation with them and get the results that they want, which is ultimately a safer and more successful brewery environment.

So, those two things started taking off and I incorporated the whole project with kind of the mission statement of making more brewery friendly dogs and more dog friendly breweries. And for me that's just such a, an important piece because I want to keep having places to take my own dog and I want my students, to have places to take their dogs. And breweries are one of those kind of places that with some exceptions, but a large portion of the country breweries are dog friendly in some capacity. And so a common place where we're, we're able to take our dogs. And so then it, as it started snowballing, I got a lot, some traction from other dog trainers who were interested in the project.

And so I also created a, a course for dog trainers who wanted to implement these types of programs in their own community. And I think I have, at last time I counted almost a hundred, maybe a little over a hundred now dog trainers around the world that have taken my drug theater dog class instructor program.

And taken and started variations of brewery dog classes in their own businesses and communities. And through that we're just expanding that mission of making sure that breweries can. Continue to be dog friendly because we are bringing them good dogs and good dog owners that know how to both support their dogs and also be respectful of the brewery space. And I think that's just kind of a, a big bigger impact than I can have in just my, my one community with, even though we have a lot of breweries, I'm only one person. So I'm really excited that other trainers have like, picked up the torch and carried carried it forward 

[00:38:17] Emly: So, the next question I have is what, what are the core principles of the course? Like what, what do you cover in the class? Basically. 

[00:38:24] Amber: Oh, yes. So we, we do kind of like to think about like brewery skills from the moment your car pulls up in the parking lot all the way to when you go and exit with your dog. So we work on, some leash walking skills towards an exciting place. We work on leash walking skills that are resilient for both indoor and outdoor use because you're gonna have to, n not all boys are indoor dog friendly, but a lot of them are, at least in my state.

So, you're gonna maybe have to navigate an indoor environment with your dog as well as an outdoor environment. We work on how to build table orientation for your dog. So it's. Starts with something kind of like our relaxation protocol, like the where we're just building duration of being in the vicinity of the human at the table, whether that's in a sit or a down.

We do use like a target, kind of like, here's your mat area. But then in the last couple years I have started introducing this kind of transition to work mode or transition to nap mode concept as an extension of that. So we start by just teaching our dogs like how to be close to the table and physically in a position of relaxation or position of like a duration down. But then how do we also set that dog up for that transition to like, okay, you're gonna actually take a nap under the table. Not that all dogs are capable of that. And that's not, I don't think. to support their dog There is an important piece. Then we work a lot on polite ordering, so we go up and practice, like approaching the bar and sitting and not jumping up on the bar. And I, a lot of, I, so I also work still with brewery staff members and a lot of them tell me like. Yeah, like, dogs are great and all, but I just don't want them jumping up on the bar when they come, come in.

We just had a, a workshop last week where that came up where they were like, I just like, it's, it brings mud into our workspace and all of that. I want the dogs like staying on the floor. Like, yeah, like that's, it is an important thing for being respectful of the brewery space. Not that, that you won't encounter a brewery that's like, yeah, sure, let your dog dump up.

We don't care. But in general, like, I think it's good to assume that that's not what that space is for and go above and beyond. So we work on plate ordering. We also work on leash walking, carrying a spillable be beverage in your hand. So something that, see with our dogs as like, okay, yep, I'm leash walking.

As long as you're engaged and as long as you're able to deliver, like, all of those cues that say stay engaged. But as soon as you're remotely distracted, well then of course I'm gonna be distracted too and I'm gonna drag you this way while while you're walking that way. And with a, carrying a beer back to your table, that can certainly be something that disrupts everybody's experience.

So we work on, like, if I'm carrying something like a mug of a mug of coffee or a pint of beer, this is your cue to stay engaged with me and walk with me back to the table. And build like a long duration of distance between treat rewards. 'cause if you have a leash in one hand and a beer in the other, you're not gonna be able to, reinforce as frequently.

And then a couple other things sprinkled in there, like what to do when your dog gets startled. What to do if your dog does bark at something or someone. Polite greetings. That's a big one too. Ties into my, my other clicker expo presentation on polite greetings. A lot of that is born out of our brewery man's work as well.

[00:41:47] Emly: All right. I am sold. That sounds like a really fun class to take with Miley. She, I, as if you've listened to the podcast, I have, I feel a certain kind of way about people making broad claims about breeds and saying that because the dog has this morphology, they're going to have this behavior and this personality. And also the dialectic there is that there are breed tendencies that show up in in many of the individuals within a breed. And I will say that Miley mostly is a really good representation of a Ji. She loves strange people far too much to be like. the the breed standard. Because most jis like the. the She never got the, memo that baji are supposed to be aloof towards strangers. She's very, very pro-social towards randos that walk by. But in many other ways, she's very baji. And so what I mean by that is she's an expert climber. She is an independent thinker. She does not wait for cues from me. She will just go and explore and try things.

And I love that about her and I wanna cultivate that in her. And it's one of the reasons I picked up picked up aji because I love those breed traits. And also those, those breed traits are mutually incompatible with, with going, taking a dog to brewery or a restaurant. So I, I have outlets for her to, to be, be the baji Baji she can be. And also I would love to work on skills where contextually it's like, okay, this is not a space where you can be full baji. I need you to dial it down to like 40% Baji. 

[00:43:17] Amber: yes. I love it. I love it. And some of that ability comes with age and maturity too, as we like, introduce easy places where like dialing it back gets gets good results, gets reinforced well, But in the, the difficulty level that is makes it so that the, the dog can, can accomplish. But it absolutely, I love what you say about like, the context is is king here. Like we can by just some little tweaks about how we approach a brewery or cafe or restaurant environment, we can just start to kind of like, set our dogs up for understanding that there are certain things that happen in those environments that that don't happen in others. And there are things in other environments that don't, are not appropriate or, or common or a part of our normal routine in those those situations. So I think that's really important. 

[00:44:12] Emly: Yeah, when I was a service dog trainer in Salt Lake Anytime we were gonna do the service dog work, we'd put on the vest first, and when we were done, we would take it off So that the dog learned that like they could go full dog. When they, when the vest was off, when the vest was on, they were on the clock. And this set of rules applied. And I found that to be such an effective way of, of like. Striking the balance between having a really effective service dog, but also letting them be dogs. That I am just gonna steal that. And I have big, big plans of, like doing this brewery class with Miley and giving her a little vest that, that the signals to her, like this is brewery time. This is 40% percent g and then my like long line equipment thing is the signal to her that we're like, it's adventure time and you can go full baji. Right. 

[00:44:58] Amber: Yeah, I love that. A lot of my wonderful drink with your drug class instructors have done different things like a brewery bandana with the drink, with your drug logo or something. So like you can just take that one step further and make like full full hoodie brewery dog hoodie vest situation for Miley. That would be adorable. 

[00:45:17] Emly: I love that idea. Okay, so that, that kind of segues beautifully into the next thing I wanted to talk to you about, because I wanna circle back to Jamie and your adventure hikes because obvi, another thing that I wanna do with Miley is go mushroom hunting with her. Because we live in the Pacific Northwest. There are so many mountain hiking opportunities out here. And and she is, jis are hunting dogs so why not, why not let her do the job? I just want her to hunt mushrooms instead of animals. But so, so you brought up something at the very beginning of this interview when you were talking about Jamie and and saying like, Jamie a lot of times likes to stay at home, so you have worked at this beautiful sort of like, negotiation about like, when are we gonna go out on an adventure?

Where are we gonna go? How long are we gonna be there? Do you wanna walk or do you wanna be carried? And I, so like that's one of the things that I, I love, before I even knew you, I loved about you. Just like in reading your website, because I have a lot of complicated feelings about, I. This topic of like taking dogs out on hikes. And I think a lot of it ties into why you started drink with your dog program because like, it's not that, I have a problem with taking dogs out into the mountains, it's that the way that people do it can cause a lot of problems. 

And when I lived in Utah, the culture there is that like, it's almost like a God-given, right? For you to be able to take your dog out on off leash hikes in the mountains. And if anybody else has a problem with it, they're the jerk, right? and and it, it, is so dangerous for the dogs themselves. It's dangerous for other dogs. It's dangerous for wildlife. and I, and I had, Brie was feral for the first year of her life and then When we adopted her, she had a really hard time adapting to a human world. and so I would have to take her out to, I. The Western mountains, which were the not cool mountains, that's where all the copper mining happened. And people didn't go there for funsies because I could not take her on a hike in the Eastern mountains because there were so many people who had dogs who had no business being off leash.

And it just wasn't safe for Brie. And So I, I was like, gosh, I can't be mad at people because they're doing the best they can with the information and resources they have, And also, like they're messing it up for everybody, right? And, and including their own dogs. I can't tell you how many dogs, when I was out with clients in the mountains helping them practice skills, and I would see other people's dogs who were patently miserable, they did not wanna be there. Right? So, so like, it's really complicated and I get that. And I'm not judging anybody, but maybe your next program can be like, hike with your dog. 

[00:47:52] Amber: Yes, yes. Well, I have, I have a few like webinar resources on that, like pieces of it, but certainly not, nothing as shiny and fancy as drink with your dog for sure.

[00:48:02] Emly: Yeah, I'm petitioning that that's your best major project and, and have being someone who has also created big programs, I understand that, that it's such a jerk move to ask you, why don't you just add another massive program to your work, your workload? But how do you navigate this stuff with your clients and what are some basic skills and etiquette that you recommend for anybody who wants to take their dogs hiking? And do you have any advice or like criteria to help people determine whether or not their dog is a good candidate for hiking, particularly off leash? I know I just threw several questions at you. We can repeat as needed, but go for it. Tell me all the things. 

[00:48:38] Amber: I, I also have a lot of thoughts and feelings about hiking and dogs and off all of that. So I'm gonna try to like distill it into some, a few coherent, salient points here. One in my work with my clients. And I'm gonna separate like my clients and then other people, out and about. 'cause I tend to try to focus on like changing the behavior and making, affecting the change that I can. And that's working with the people that come to me ready to, to accept help and, And my input. And I have in the past, you, know, early, early trainer life, spent a lot of energy trying to change the behavior of other people. And found that was like a really, big burnout trigger. And so now like I I don't worry about it so much what other people doing. I worry about what I do and what my clients do or what I, what they would like to do and how I can empower them to do that in the best way possible. So, and I will put an asterisk there saying like, it is a lot easier to do that now that I have a dog that is, is generally a resilience, like dog pro-social dog.

When I had a dog My last dog. But so it wasn't, it's not just dependent on what dog I have on the end of the leash. But I, I will say like that is a little asterisk there to say it is, it is hard when you're the one like, and your dog is severely affected or limited by it. So my clients coming to me wanting to hike with their dogs, I am going to really kind of. One, get a sense for what is within their purview of goals. And if they mention that they're like hoping to go off leash, we'll talk about appropriate ways to do that and how to determine if their dog is ready. Even if that's not like, a stated goal at the beginning, I'm still hoping to work on skills with them leading to where they, might not be so dependent on the leash to get their dog's behavior.

So I think there's value in kind of building skills that are not dependent on, like, feeling a little bit of leash pressure to our recall or to, to stay with us so we can still train as if we are going to go off leash someday. And I think that has VA value even if we don't ever unclip the leash.

So that's one, one note there. But then two, like I'm really going to be talking to them about like. How to make sure that they are one, thinking about their dog's safety in as many, ways as possible. But two, thinking about like the the ways that they can create an awfully world that is still considerate and safe for others.

And one of the things we do for that is like, teach the dog actually to start, like when they notice someone to come back to their person. So it's not even relying on the human to call the dog back. It is a scale we build into our routine for the dogs where dogs may be even on a, a long line, they see someone coming and expect to get their reinforcement back at the human. So we put the the recall into the dog's paws as much as possible there.

So that we. Then can, the human can follow up with clipping the dog on a leash or stepping off the trail and yielding space. So just like, and I will, like give my clients a lot of credit to be, to say like a, a majority of them are, are the people that are already going above and beyond to demonstrate courtesy to others.

And many of them come because they have had a reactive dog at one point in time. And so they're already a a wonderful subset of, of humans who are, going above and beyond to be considerate of other people in those environments. I also do a little bit of education for them on like, how to handle an off-leash dog or an off-leash dog encounter.

Of course there's, there's still fallout from, from that no matter how you handle it, but equipping them with the, the skills to be like, okay, my, we, we've trained for this, we know what to do. Is part of is part of that puzzle piece there. And just like. Really helping them determine whether they can take their dog off leash.

So for me, that question I think this was your second question of like, how do you determine whether a dog is ready to be off leash? Am I remembering that correctly?

[00:52:56] Emly: It was one of the questions. It does not we. They don't have to be in order, but Yes, How do you help clients determine whether or not their dogs are good candidates for.

[00:53:04] Amber: I would, it comes down to like a couple questions. One, what skills do they have? In what context are they able to execute? Like are they able to to come back when they see another dog in person approaching? And even if they can't come back automatically, if you call them, are we, let's say, would we put a hundred dollars or even $200 on the, the bet that our dog is gonna come back when, when that happens?

Like, that's a kind of a non-negotiable thing for me. Two, If my dog, my off-leash dog, were to run up to another person and dog, if a recall fails or something happens, do I have experience with my dog kind of deescalating social situations to the best of their ability and the social situations with other people and other dogs.

Because the, the answer of like, oh, he's friendly is just not sufficient, no matter the situation. And because I need to be able to see the dog actually demonstrate that they are going to like. Move away when there's conflict or they're going to like sense tension or body, other body language that's weird.

And then listen to that recall cue. And if I don't have a dog that can do that, like, I think it's a huge liability for the people. To be going in like off-leash spaces or places, knowing what they're, they're adding in there, all that to to say, like, I also have a belief in like off-leash time is good for dogs and leash leash time is not as great as far as meeting our dog's needs.

And so when holding these things in balance, like finding safe places for our dogs to be off leash is a, an important piece for me. But also like there are certain trails in my area, like in my immediate county, that we have a leash law. And so any Of our local trails. The dog should be on leash. When we get up into the mountains, just outside of town, we have some areas that some areas that are on leash required, and then some areas where it's it's more optional and then a certain trail that's like known as the off leash dog trail.

And my kind of rule of thumb is like if you're on that trail, like expect to see dogs off leash, plan for it, know your skills, like don't go there trying to change other people's behavior because like there are more, at least in our area, more limited options for off leash opportunities for our dogs.

So like if, a trail is an off leash trail, like just accept it. Don't go there if that's not for you. And then otherwise like, know your skills for your own dog. Know your own dog's ability, follow leash laws. And but find other opportunities for your dog to be off leash. As much as possible and feasible within your, your life.

If you are going to make the choice to unclip your leash in an area, has leash laws. And there are, let's see I'm gonna like out myself here. There's like two spaces in my town where like, I, it's generally a culture that when you go to that space, it's an off leash area, even though it's an technically an on leash area.

I will unclip my leash in those cases, but if I am, if. Doing that, I am going to go above and beyond to demonstrate courtesy to everyone else. And if someone else's dog is off, is on a leash, then I'm definitely going to stay away. If someone else is actively trying to avoid me and, and move their dogs away, then I'm going to make sure that my dogs go back on a leash as we pass.

And so just like, I don't know, the education for my students on that is just like, go above and beyond to demonstrate as much courtesies as you can so that we can hold onto those places where it is okay for off leash work to happen. And don't don't assume that everyone is is feeling the same about, about that with their dogs.

[00:56:54] Emly: Yeah, I have a general life philosophy that my rights end where yours begins, and I think that's true for dogs too. Like your dog's rights end where somebody else's dog's rights begin. And so like I agree with you, the. More freedom that we can give our dogs, the more agency we can give our dogs, which in this context translates into the more off leash time we can give them, the better off they are.

And also we have to be aware of everybody else in the environment and their needs and, and not violate their needs to meet your dog's needs because that is not enrichment, Right, That, that is then if the net outcome is harm, that is not enrichment, even if your dog personally was enriched by that. And so, Yeah. it's, it is tricky And that's why I feel so conflicted about it because it's like, man, I I love that you wanna take your dog on off leash hikes and you wanna give them that level of agency.

And also your dog is not capable of doing that in a way that doesn't violate the safety of everybody else on this trail. right. So, Yeah. 

[00:57:57] Amber: And I think it depends also on your dog and your, like, Jamie, when I unclip the leash, he is. Based on who he is and also what I've reinforced, but also mostly who he is. I can't take all the credit. He's right there at my heel. He's like, I wandering through the brush, like that's for taller dogs who don't have a pound of fuzz to pick up every little thing. I am gonna be staying on the trail. I'm gonna be right there with you. And, someone else comes along, he's like, I would rather, just sit here with you and then we carry on our way. So if I'm making the choice to go off leash, my dog's being off leash is going to be. Minimally impactful, knock on wood, of course.

But there's always, then that element of like someone else has a dog that's walking past, they don't know my dog's behavior. They don't know the steps that I am going to be taking to control my dog. The training that I have done. They have no information to to say like, this is going to be a safe situation for me and my dog.

They just have the, the cue of that dog's off leash and could become a problem for me and my dog. And without all of that extra information and just saying he's friendly is not enough to convey that information. And that you don't have time in those type of interactions to convey all of that. And so the, the, like least. The least impactful thing that you can do for someone else in that moment is just clip your dog on a leash, like, clip on let them pass and then resume your, your respective activities.

[00:59:29] Emly: I love that so much and I look forward to, taking Miley through your hike with your dog course once you've created it. Once you just whip that up, no big deal. Yeah, Yeah, no problem. So let's talk more about Jamie. So how do, how do you navigate with him? Because having just talked about how like, letting your dogs off leash is, is good agency and all of that, you also provide him a lot of agency in saying like, hard pass to hiking today, mom. Or like hard pass to walking, like, you're gonna carry me like if we go on this hike. So how do you, how do you navigate that conversation with him? 

[01:00:02] Amber: Yeah. It's been a learning journey because I was raised by an Aussie who always wanted to go, and Al never said no to anything ever in his life. And so now I have a wonderful teacher in slowing down and taking breaks and not just doing it because, you know. Sitting still is hard. So with Jamie, it's been a little bit of, an evolution of our journey, and I think there's been several factors along the way. One of which is Jamie's partially deaf, and so. I think sometimes since, and that was due to like a medical event in when he was two years old. So we spent the first two years of his life fully hearing dog. And then now he's partially hearing. And so depending on the environment, I think now with his kind of partial hearing sometimes if it's really windy or if there's a lot of other noises, he can choose different things depending on, how he's feeling that day.

The, because I think some of the sensory stuff is a lot, so in general, like I, I taught him early on before he was choosing that he liked to ride more than walk. I, he had good backpack skills because we worked on getting into the backpack really positive thing. And so now like. Sometimes I'll offer him two choices. I'll hold up his leash and he'll give me really clear body language of like, I'm not really into walking today. And then I'll pull out the backpack and he immediately comes over and gets in the backpack. And so he has like such a clear opt in.

And I would say like if given the choice he would, his hierarchy of like staying home, going with in the backpack or hiking I would say nine, let's say eight out of 10 times he's going to choose to go with over staying home. Some, sometimes I have seen him be like, you know what? I would just rather have a nap today. And in those cases, he'll go in. And he'll like, on occasion go into his screen. And I have had to work through a lot of feelings about that and just be like, okay, I, I guess you can stay and I'm gonna go. And I'm just starting in the last, I would say in the last year to be more accepting of like going for a hike without a dog which feels so strange after so many years of like only hiking with a dog. Or I'll go for a, a trail run instead and take advantage of it. But most of the time, if given the choice. He will choose to get in the backpack. And for me that says, because he knows he has such a long history of the backpack, goes somewhere back. We don't just get in the backpack to stay home.

That's a really clear, like opt-in to that adventure where he's saying like, yes, please. and then when he's in the backpack, most of the time he is super comfy, just like happy to lay there. He will ride in the backpack for an hour or more without requesting to get out. But then sometimes he will start getting a little fidgety. And so then I'll put the backpack on the ground and be like, do you wanna get out? And he has the opportunity to say yes or no. Occasionally I, when I need him to get out like let's say we're about to get back in the car to go for an hour car ride and we're coming up to the trail head and I really would like him to go pee before he gets in the car or before we get to the trail head. And so I will put it on the ground and I'll kind of unzip it all the way and be like, sorry bud, you gotta get out. Here's a cookie. Scatter outside the backpack to motivate you. And I'm not asking you if you wanna stay in, but then other times if I don't need him to get out, I'll kind of ask, do you wanna get out? Do you wanna not? And about I would say it's like, it depends on how long he's been in the backpack, if he's feeling like stretching his legs or not. And then usually he'll walk for a little bit and then he'll stop and look at me. And sometimes I can like, encourage him to keep walking and some, sometimes he surprises me like, it's not super consistent, it's just like what he, he feels like, And feels like on the, the given day, but kinda having those communications where like, I know what yes looks like and I know what no looks like And getting better about asking, asking for him to choose. 

[01:04:04] Emly: I, love, that and I I wanna tell you, that like it. I actually don't wanna tell you this. I. wanna tell our listeners This that like I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed by like, how much training is involved in teaching animals, those like yes no contingencies. And in certain contexts, like in cooperative care, it really can take a long time to teach, like the opt-in and the opt-out behaviors. But it is a very fa right. Most of the time those kind of opt-in And, opt-outs are incredibly fast. Miley by the end of the first week. In our house, Miley learned how to tell me if she was, if she was had climbed somewhere, and I could tell that she was like, struggling with how to get down. I would hold up my hands to her And be like, do you want help?

And it, took, by the end of the first week, she learned that when, if she like stands still And, hangs her head down that signals me to pick her up and help her get down. And if she turns her body away from me and does a little tap dance, like, no, I got, I'm gonna get off myself. I just need a moment. Then I won't grab her I. I won't pick her up. 

And it took less than a week for, and I was, and it wasn't like, we didn't have like capital T training sessions. It was literally just every time she was in that situation, I would hold up my hands and ask, do you want help? And when she would stay still, I would pick her up. And when she would get fidgety or move, I would not pick her up.

I would let her do it on her own. And now that is our communication for if she wants to be picked up or not. I just ask her, do you want help? And I hold out my hands so. I think that's so important. 'cause a lot of people express concern about, well, if we give animals that much agency and we listen to them and we say yes or no, it requires really complicated training, which not everybody can do.

And it requires a lot of time and effort, which not everybody can do. And that's simply just not true. That's not, that's not true. It, it can be so quick and easy and really accessible to everybody. So I just have to say that, thank you for coming to my TED Talk because I was listening to you and I was like, I bet Jamie, and you figured that out really quickly. 

[01:06:12] Amber: Yes, absolutely. He he has been just such a great lesson in like clear communication. And this is kind of like kinda segueing into what could be a whole other topic, but he's also a resource garter like from early early puppy hood back with like from first week home, We we saw this. And so we've developed communication over. Sharing resources. And he's still a resource guarder, he still would like to keep the thing. But my, my partner actually early on was is who is not a dog trainer, just developing some of this communication with him around consent with just like no specific training sessions? No, just like in our daily life Jamie loves to have his chew bones. He loves it when the human would hold onto the end of it to give it leverage. And so even as a young puppy, he was like wanting, but because he's resource guard, he was also conflicted. And so he would growl at us, but also be bringing the bone over.

And Charlie, my partner, just started adding help you as he held out his hand and then would hold the bone and not take it, and then let Jamie, Jamie would, could take the bone back at any point. And so now like Jamie brings the bone over and even if he doesn't have as much conflict now about it after five five and a half years, he has a very like, established routine.

I bring the bone over, it's safe to give to the humans 'cause they're just gonna hold it. But early on, like that communication was so important where we could see Jamie like. Starting to learn. Like when he heard like, we weren't gonna take it from him, we weren't gonna do anything else. Like when he heard those words, it was a very, like his choice to then take it or to come over.

And it's important for all dogs to, to build that communication, but small dogs, especially who don't, they have so many areas of their life where it's just not a, or we don't give them choices because we don't have to because they're small. The, and I think they benefit so much from, having us like take that into our communication with them.

[01:08:22] Emly: Yeah. I, I heard agree about that. Like, Yeah. small animals deserve as much agency as large animals. Like I tell clients all the time, if you wouldn't do it to a tiger, don't do it to your dog or your, or your parrot or your cat, whatever. Right? And so, Yeah. and I think one of the things that you brought up that's really important, and also what happened with me and Miley, is if you're just consistent about the words that you use with your dogs, they learn what those words mean or the context that those words are signaling.

So a lot of times it's not even about. What you think of as training, it's just about being consistent with the, the words that you use. I really love hearing about your adventures with Jamie and how the two of you have learned how to negotiate, like what he's into, like when, when he's into it, when he is like, yeah, I'm feeling, I, I'm, I'm like, this is my Aussie era. Like, I feel like I can, I can go hard on the hiking or like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm going full pap on today. Carry me. right. I love that I love that so much. Thank you for sharing. All right. At the end of every interview, I like to ask the same set of questions, and the first one is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion? 

[01:09:31] Amber: I think an easy way to sum that up would be like, think about your, your goal adventures with your dog, whether that's a brewery or your hiking adventures. And think about the, then think about like the skills in communication that you need with your dog. And pick one, one simple thing to layer into your, your adventures, your practice.

And it doesn't have to be a formal training session, but just like if you need your dog to be still by the table for brewery visit, like start working on a small, small, little criteria set of that if you need your dog to like, tell you when they're ready to hike, start working on like, just a little bit of communication on that.

[01:10:12] Emly: Love that. Thank you. What is one thing you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or enrichment, your choice.

[01:10:17] Amber: Oh, I think it that if we think about like the brewery manners or drink with your dog as like a topic. One thing I wish that people would really keep in mind is that our breweries, our environments created for humans and they are often dog friendly, but they are not usually curated for our dogs. And they are, we are there with our dogs. And the fact that we are there with our dogs is a privilege that. Can be taken away as easily as someone writing a, a dog policy for their brewery that says, I'm sorry, no dogs allowed. And so I think if we carry that level of intention, like intentionality into visiting those spaces and being like, if I wouldn't take it to this dog, to my grandma's house, I shouldn't take it to the brewery care, then I think we can all just contribute just a tiny way to making sure that the dogs that are visiting breweries are equipped to be there and equipped to like, take care of our brewery staff as well as the other people and guests in the breweries and other places we're allowed to visit with their dogs so that we can all continue to be allowed to visit those spaces with our dogs.

[01:11:29] Emly: Yeah, protect. Protect the opportunity. Protect the resource. Right. Love that. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field? 

[01:11:37] Amber: Oh, the field of, of dog training. Where do we start? Where do we end? I think yeah, let's do dog. I would like to see assist dog trainers being kinder to ourselves and to our clients and to other people who may, maybe operating under different information. I know that's maybe cliche to say, but I think if I can view it or, or posit it in like a burnout prevention lens of like, we can only exist in this industry and helping people and dogs.

As long as we're em emotionally available to do that and spend, let's spend all of our, all of our emotional energy on like helping people and dogs who are in front of us and helping. 'cause we are making a difference. Like, we get feedback every day from, different people in our communities saying we're doing, we, how much of an impact we've made on their lives or, or brewery staff who are now feeling safer at work due to the work where, you know, each of us in the industry has like little bits of influence there. And so like, focus on those things, focus on on all of that and be kind to ourselves. Along that journey.

[01:12:46] Emly: yeah. I, I, I don't think it's a cliche and I think we need to keep saying it until, as a industry and probably as a species, we have learned how to dive into the dialectics of like the difference between kindness and toxic positivity, and that we can be kind to each other while still holding each other accountable. That kindness does not preclude, dis disagreement or debate or, or pointing out mistakes and errors and how and what we can do differently in the future to improve. So I think, like I agree with you that it's worth saying, even though it's, it gets said a lot because so often we still see regularly, regularly and, and not just in our profession, but just in humans in general, that people can't dis distinguish between being kind to somebody versus being passive aggressive or, or not meeting your own needs by expressing the harm that's happening.

Or not being, not being able to like, have clear communication and debate over something in a civil and supportive way. Like until all of those things are common knowledge in our profession, we just need to keep coming back to that root of like, we start with kindness. Kindness is kindness, is kindness is the foundation upon which we build all these other dialectics, right? All right. What are you currently working on? Aside from obviously building the hiking with your dog course, which we've decided today that you're going to do, what are you currently working on and if people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you? 

[01:14:18] Amber: Yeah. So, okay, so maybe a better question is, what am I not currently working on? I'm just kidding. I feel like, I am, I am working on a kind of combination of things. One, i, have been trying to write a book for years, and I, I told enough people at Clicker Expo about it that I'm really, really trying to make it happen. So, I've been putting some feet to, to the next stage of that project and trying to bring it. to the top of the list really hard. But I am also this summer really focusing on investing in some of my junior team members who are like ready to get to that next stage of being able to teach their own services and, and teach different diverse services. so I have a, a few awesome folks coming up on my team that I'm really excited to spend more time with this summer to keep passing the torch of of training skills and and then ultimately maybe getting. To, to take some of my, my client teaching time and put it to, more projects, maybe that hiking, hiking with your dog course. So that's those are two kind of big projects on my list while also trying to teach, teach my clients and my my classes and private lessons each week to the best of my ability I'm doing this month. I did I'll have done two brewery staff trainings by the end of this month, so that, that part is still a big part of the drink with your dog project as well. So, just all, all the things too many projects at once, as always. 

[01:15:50] Emly: But I love all of it. We're in the same boat. It's like there are so many things we wanna do and there are so many things that we are doing and, and it's like, it's all. I don't feel like any of it is dispensable, but, that just means that we're real busy. 

[01:16:05] Amber: Right. that means our brains are going mostly 20 directions at any given point in time. 

[01:16:11] Emly: I, this is a little bit of a sidebar, but, I was lamenting to Allie and Ellen a few weeks ago that I used to be a voracious reader and just inhale books. And now I'm like, lucky if I can get through one chapter before like my brain is done. And I was like, I don't know what happened to me if it's just aging or what. And Ellen in her, because Ellen is one of the most insightful people I've ever met. But like, she just looked at me with her face, her like, obviously like, and she's like, it's because we all read. All day, every day we're reading continuing education materials. We're reading our, like student's work, we're reading our client's work, we're reading our team's work, we're reading, all the training plans. We're reading our own content that we are creating, And then proofing, right? Proof reading, like this is what we do for living is reading. So of course your brain doesn't have any reading spoons left at the end of the day, and I was like, yep. Yeah, that explains it. Thanks Ellen. 

[01:17:07] Amber: Yes. Yes. My if I could get get some amount of headway in the like, books purchased to, books, read ratio, at some point before I die, I will be that I will, that would be the pinnacle of my 

[01:17:22] Emly: Listen. Don't at me, Amber. I mean like, I never knew friends. I would like to maintain our friendship. You, you just attacked me, real hard because I'm not gonna tell you. 

[01:17:32] Amber: I attacked myself. 

[01:17:33] Emly: I'm not gonna tell you how many books of or shelves of unread books that I have in my house right now. Don't appreciate you attacking me like that. 

[01:17:40] Amber: Sounds like we need a book club. 

[01:17:42] Emly: I would be down for a book club with you anytime. All right. If people wanna work more with or learn from you, where can they find you? 

[01:17:48] Amber: you, can find me on my website, summit dog training.com. Also, if you wanna learn more about the drink with your dog project that has its own website drink with your dog.com. And I'm also on social media for what's that that is worth these days. I'm at at Summit Dog Training on both Instagram and Facebook. If you? want to reach me directly, the, the contact form on the website or sending me an email, amber@summitdogtraining.com is, is the best way to, to ping my inbox. 

[01:18:21] Emly: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a lot of fun and I really appreciate you and everything that you do. 

[01:18:27] Amber: Thank you for having me, Emily.

[01:18:29] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony.