#122 - Lili Chin: About Dog Breeds

How much can a dog’s breed really tell you? In this episode of Enrichment for the Real World, illustrator and author Lili Chin (she/her) returns to talk about her newest book, Dogs of the World: A Gallery of Pups from Purebreds to Mutts. You probably know Lili from her beloved body language infographics and viral artwork, and now she’s helping us better understand the complex, fluid, and very human world of breed identity.

Listen as Lili and Emily dive into why “solo dog” is a better term than “dog aggressive,” how breed traits reflect more about human ideals than actual dogs, and why terms like “pariah” and “primitive” might not mean what you think. Blending thoughtful art with a global perspective, this episode invites us to rethink breed labels and focus on what really matters: the individuality of every dog.

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen):

1️⃣ Breed ≠ Personality – A dog’s breed can’t predict everything about them. Breed ideals reflect human expectations more than canine realities, and every dog is an individual shaped by context, not just genetics.

2️⃣ Language Matters – Terms like “solo dog” instead of “aggressive,” and carefully choosing breed labels, can reduce harm and better reflect reality. Lili’s work challenges us to use language that is inclusive, accurate, and respectful.

3️⃣ A Broader View of Breeds – Lili breaks down the variety of dog types, like purebreds, landraces, and free-ranging dogs, and explains how understanding this spectrum can deepen our appreciation for dogs in all contexts.

Links & Resources from the Episode

🧾 For full episode transcripts: Arial | OpenDyslexic

🌐 Find the full episode show notes here

📖 Dogs of the World Book 

✅ Dogs of the World Resources and Reference List

🎧 #48 - Lili Chin: Behind the Scenes with Doggie Drawings 

✅ Pet Enrichment Poster

🎧 #60 - Kalyn Holl: Sled Dogs and Reindeer

🎧 #92 - Thea Harting: Rabbit Speed Dating

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lili: There's so many myths that hold us back from listening to and respecting dogs as individuals. And we know that a lot of ideas, outdated ideas about behavior kind of get in the way of that. And I think. Breed, essentialism also gets in in the way of that. And you know, the idea that a certain breed or a type of dog has a fixed type of personality, or they have a fixed traits. And I hope this book shows that these are ideals we have, they're not real dogs, and that our ideals are changeable and the way we think about dogs, is really dependent on context and dependent on so many things, and I hope it all comes back to seeing and hearing, listening to dogs as individuals.

[00:00:42] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:00:59] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:01] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:21] Emily: The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Lili Chin. Lili Chin is an author, illustrator, best known for her animal related art and books. Since 2008, she has been providing custom illustration and a catalog of art products for sale and creative, expressive, and educational illustrations for the world of companion, animal behavior and welfare, animal lovers and businesses. Lili is Malaysia, born, spent most of her youth in Sydney, Australia, and currently lives in Los Angeles with her writer, husband, and two rescued and bonded cats, Mambo and Shimmy.

I will never stop being amazed by Lili's ability to dive deeply into complex topics like body language and breeds, and then convey all that information in succinct words and what she calls a new to her minimalist illustration style. Being able to self edit like that are hashtag life goals for me.

In this episode, you're going to hear Lili and I talk about why we both prefer the term solo dogs instead of dog aggressive dogs, me trying to wrap my head around the difference between breeds and land races and only kind of sorta of starting to figure it out, and why dog breeds are more about humans than dogs.

All right. Okay. Tell us your name, pronouns, and pets.

[00:02:38] Lili: Uh, my name is Lili Chin. My pronouns are she, her. I have two pets. They're cats. Um, Mambo is a black, fluffy cat with one eye. Shimmy is a tiny gray and white tuxedo cat. And they love each other.

[00:02:53] Emily: That's so cute. I miss living with kitties and I love how I love the bond, but that two cats can really share.

It's, it's really sweet.

Yeah. So tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:05] Lili: Okay, so, I'm an illustrator and an author, although the author part of it is quite new. I've been working as an illustrator since like around 2008. I started off as a pet portrait artist when I. Just adopted my Boston Terrier Boogie, who's no longer with us. Um, at the time I grew people's dogs and cats.

That was my small business. So I had a terrible, devastating, life-changing incident that happened to me shortly after I adopted Boogie. He bit my building manager and I got an eviction notice, which kind of threw me into. Learning about dog training and dog behavior. And I learned in the process that, you know, not all dog trainers are the same.

There are ethical dog trainers and there are dog trainers who still stick outdated. Ideas. So I started illustrating a lot of things I was learning in my blog at the time, which no longer exists, and which connected me with a lot of like wonderful people like Dr. Sophia Yin, the late Dr. Sophia Yin, and I was her illustrator for three years.

I also illustrated dog body language charts, infographics for various people in the dog behavior world. And at the same time, I was also running an online store on Etsy, selling my own art and products. And to cut a very long story short, in around 2019, I was approached by a publisher to turn my dog body language poster into a gift book, and that's how Doggy Language started.

That was my first published book. And Boogie passed away in 2020 and my husband and I adopted two Cats, mumbo and Shimmy, and I started becoming obsessed with my cats and learning about cat behavior and that led to Kitty language. My second book and Dogs of the World is my third book. Um, it was part of a two book deal that I had with my publisher, and this was one of the ideas I pitched to them and the one they picked.

So today I'm still doing all the things. I'm still doing pet portraits. I still have an online shop. I'm still doing infographics for behavior professionals, and I've got books. So that's where I am today.

[00:05:16] Emily: And I love, I love everything you do. I love your work, and this is our second time to have you on the podcast. Because everybody, all, everybody at Pet Harmony, we're a big fan of what you do and how you talk about body language and, and you know, how you think about. The human animal relationship and human animal interactions.

So thank you for everything you do. Um, and having said that, and having said that, I love everything you do. Your new book is my favorite thing that you've ever done. 

[00:05:44] Lili: Thank you. This means I'm a fan of yours, so this means a lot.

[00:05:48] Emily: first of all, Every page that I was reading, I was just like yes. Like, oh my gosh. And I have to say that a moment that I actually was so happy that I actually like got teary-eyed was in the chart in the infographic where you're talking about the moral Morrell study.

Morrell, I

don't know how to pronounce her last name. Your top. And so like her study, for those of you who aren't familiar with it or haven't read Lili's book yet her study, they were looking at, she and her team were looking at different like personality traits and finding like which ones were more, um, genetically which ones are more influenced by genetics than others.

And one of the kind of personality traits that's listed in your infographic is. Dog sociability, and you put in there, and it's such a tiny footnote, but it actually brought tears to my eyes. You put in there dog solo or dog selective. And I was, I got so emotional about that because I'm getting emotional now because I get so upset when people talk about dog aggression, like dog directed aggression as a personality trait.

Because that's not true. Dogs aren't intrinsically aggressive towards their own species. They're intrinsically, they can be intrinsically like they can be born like not really wanting to do, have a lot to do with other dogs. Uh, but the reason that they are aggressive is because we believe that dogs are dogs social and that they should be social with other dogs.

And we force dog, solo dogs to interact with other dogs. And so do we. Are the reason that these dogs. Learn to be just behave aggressively towards every other dog. Now, I am not claiming that it's unnatural for dogs to ever get in conflict with each other. That's obviously not true. But this idea that dog aggression is a personality trait and that there are some dogs that are just born to instantly attack any other dog they see as a like, as an a normal behavior that's just genetically in there with them.

That's not true. Conflict is a natural part of life. Seeking conflict towards every member of your own species is not, that's not, that doesn't, that's not e evolutionarily adaptive for anybody. Uh, when you chose to call them solo dog or selective dog, instead of aggressive or selective, I got so teary eyed. I was so emotion about that. 

[00:08:09] Lili: so I personally have a pet peeve about the word aggressive. Like, I mean, I had a sensitive dog, and so I'm very familiar with the experiences of. You know, helping my dog feel safe around other dogs and, you know, being, I was very aware that he had friends, but not every dog was his friend. And so, yeah, so, you know, that's sort of informed my, by my own life experiences as well.

And uh, interesting thing is when I first started working on this book, when I first told people I was doing a dog breed book. It was interesting that one of the questions that came up a lot was, oh, so are you gonna write about all the different breed personalities? Even my editor asked that questions question.

I, ' cause originally I pitched it as a book of pictures. I wasn't really gonna do a lot of writing. Well, that changed quickly when I started researching and, and hearing the kind of questions people asked. And my editor, my editor had the same question, will you be writing about different breed personalities?

And I realized that I had to tackle that subject. So hence the moral book. Uh, the Moral Study. Yeah.

[00:09:17] Emily: And you do it so beautifully. You do it so beautifully. I love how you talk about breeds and how we should be thinking about breeds and I. I love that you are really careful in how you talk about that and you're very precise. You're like you talk about the fact that like personalities are not, like, there's not a one-to-one relationship between morphology and personality.

That you can't assume a dog's personality based on how they look. And, um, that is really important to me because, so. So often we see people that are saying, well, this dog needs this thing because they look this way, or This dog is going to want this thing because they look this way, or this dog has limitations on what their capabilities are because they look this way.

And obviously like that is, that can be really harmful. So I love how careful you are in talking about, like, one of the other things that you said that had me like cheering out loud was. The personality traits that are listed for breeds are the ideal that these breed standards expect of these dogs that, and expect of like the ideal specimen.

But that doesn't mean that every dog of this breed is going to ha have these personality traits or these behaviors. And you also talk about how personality traits it, that's a very fluid, subjective thing, and that like what one person means by aloof is not necessarily what another person means. And. You do have this beautiful infographic about like, how, like depending on what their expectation of the dog is, influences how we interpret their behavior.

There's that infographic with the Beagle where you're

like. In a working situation, this dog pulling on the leash, they're like, this dog's a rock star doing his job. And in a pet situation, they're like, this dog is stubborn. Right? It's the same behavior, but the context is different. I'm just telling you, you're book back at you.

But I mean, like, there's so much of that and what blows my mind is that you are able to get so much of that information across so succinctly. You even do that with your illustrations too, where you even say in your book that you were trying to do sort of like minimalist illustrations, but they're so powerful because you look at them and you know exactly what breed you're looking at.

So, okay. I'm gonna stop fangirling at you. Um. So you, you already kind of told us what inspired you to write this book, which was one of the things I was gonna ask you, but also, so what were some of your biggest aha moments and the takeaways that you learned in the process of doing the research for this book?

What I just told you some of my favorite things about the book. What are some of your favorite things about your book?

[00:11:46] Lili: So I think the biggest aha moment for me was when I started researching was I need another year on this book. There was just so much there. 'Cause I originally pitched the book as a book of designs. I wasn't planning to do a ton of writing, but you know, my editor wanted words you know, I had to write something.

And when I started reading about dog breeds. It occurred to me that there were so many categories and labels that needed defining, like, um, as you know, like purebred dogs are, uh. Classed into groups. There were herding dogs and livestock guardian dogs and scent hounds and sighthounds and all these labels we use.

And I thought I need to explain what all these mean. I need to, I need to find out myself what all these things mean. So you know, there was that chapter on different dog types and roles. And the other thing that was amazing to me was that, um, most of the dogs in the world aren't breeds, like most of the dogs in the world are no breed dogs.

I mean, we, we call them village dogs. That's kind of, I guess the label we use, consensus. We, except it. Word, but most, uh, you know, I spoke to Dr. Catherine Lord and she said, well, they're actually no breed dogs. They just don't have a breed. And I, I wanted to include those dogs, you know, in, in this book because you don't often see them included in dog breed books, it dog pedigree dogs, or pure purebred dogs usually.

Take the full stage, and I wanted to look at the history of purebred dogs within a bigger context, like zooming out and seeing where they fit within a bigger world of dogs and how they came about. And it's fascinating that you know. Most of the modern breeds we know today were invented by people only 200, 250 years ago.

They're modern human creations. I, I mean, I think that's amazing. I mean, it's kind of a bit scary, but it's also amazing.

[00:13:39] Emily: Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I, I love that. I love how much you talk about the land, race, and village dogs and the no breed dogs. And I love how you clearly define, I mean, we can talk about that later. I'm getting off on my own little bunny trail, but I, to me, like your discussion of breeds in the context of the wider world of dogs is so inclusive, and I think it's really important, especially for Americans and westerners like perhaps Europeans too, to a lesser extent.

To read about dog breeds in that context because we tend to have a very geocentric, um, belief about animal welfare. That we are the pinnacle, that we do it best, and everybody else has to get up to speed with how we think about and handle dogs. And actually, if you look at the rest of the world, there are a lot of places on this planet that do some things much better than we do, and we could learn a lot from them if we had the intellectual humility to to remove that assumption that we are the best at animal care.

Actually be willing to learn from other cultures. And that's not to say that like everywhere, um, does, I just did, I just did an interview for somebody that the episode will come out, um, actually in our next season for reasons. And she's based in Vietnam and there's not a lot that they, we learned in that con I learned in that conversation from her that there's not a lot that, um.

That in Vietnam is like, has like shining welfare examples for animals. But their willingness to learn and their openness and their growth mindset, they run circles around us in that regard. Right. So I love that you really talk about that. 'cause I think it's important for those of us who live in the United States to really be aware of what the rest of the world is doing.

Right.

[00:15:28] Lili: definitely. Especially now. Yeah.

[00:15:31] Emily: it is more important than ever that we learn how to take several seats and, uh, sit down and shut up and learn from the rest of the world.

Yeah. Um, so one thing that you taught me that I actually wanna bring up is that. I would like in, in the, in the vein, the, the kind of path that I started to go down is that I had learned that pariah dogs were the name for what I learned from you are primitive type breeds. I had heard them called pariah dogs, and I just. I'm familiar with the way pariah has been used in a derogatory way towards humans, but I just assumed that it was a homonym, like it didn't even occur to me that the pariah pariah, as we refer to dogs, was related to that history with humans. So can be, because I learned that from you. Can you talk more, speak more to that, because I think that's a really important distinction to make.

[00:16:28] Lili: It's still used. The term is still sort of an official label for dogs that are free ranging, that are in Asia and Africa that are not. Purebred dogs. But, um, pariah is also and, you know, I'm from Malaysia, Southeast Asian country where we pronounce it as barrier, and that is a, like a negative offensive label for people.

So, so that's my personal connection, whether and I personally did not feel comfortable using that word in relation to dogs because it, it does cast them. as a lower class of dogs. And no, the purpose of my book was not, was to kind of not get into classes, not to rank dogs in any way. So that was my personal reason for not using the word I mean.

But at the same time, I'd also had a conversation with a dog scholar in India and, uh, Roger Kop, she's written, she has co-written this great. Paper, this presentation. Um, with that goes into terminology we use for different types of dogs that are not purebred dogs. And the problem with the word pariah is that it tends to conflate different things and causes confusion.

People use the word pariah to refer to stray dogs or to, to refer to street dogs. Dogs are just roaming who are not owned. People also use the word pariah to refer to. A type to primitive type dogs that have, dogs that look like Bassis or village dogs, the Africanness dogs that are big, big, uh, pointy ears and curly tails and skinny bodies.

Um, those dogs that also referred to as pariah. So it's conflating a type of phenotype. Physical traits with mode of life. Um, and I think that's why that term causes confusion because there, there are dogs that are community dogs and they are free ranging. They're not owned by any particular private property.

Um, they live within communities and they may or may not be primitive type dogs, and there are primitive type dogs that. May or may not be free ranging there may be dogs who live in homes. Uh, for that reason, I didn't use that word 'cause it just, I just think it's causes confusion and it has an offensive tone from where, where I'm from.

I, I guess it. And, um, this is going off track slightly, but it's also the reason why I don't, I didn't use the word bitch in my book. Bitches Bitch is a legitimate word for a female dog in UK and in certain parts of the world, but I personally don't feel comfortable calling dogs, bitches, and it has a misogynistic tone to it.

[00:19:15] Emily: Yeah, it's interesting because there's, um, a linguistic term. Called semantic drift. And that's when a word originally meant one thing. And then over time it came to mean another thing. And a lot of times semantic drift happens where either the original use of the word was a, an incredibly oppressive marginalizing cruel definition and then has come to mean something totally benign.

Or vice versa, where it, it used to mean something benign or even good, and then over time, the, uh, the semantic drift happened and then it became oppressive language or othering language, marginalizing language. And there's a lot of controversy over whether the, like one, the weather semantic, drift, nullifies, the, the,

oppressiveness of a word, right? Like, well, I don't mean it in its current use. I mean it in its original use, or vice versa. Like we should, even though it means that now we shouldn't use it. Because back then it meant, and I kind of, I don't really, I don't feel like I have the right to have strong opinions about that. I just listen to those conversations, but. I do think it's really good that in your book like that, that whether or not we can call a dog a bitch, whether or not women can call each other a bitch in kind of a reclaiming way, those are certainly conversations worth having, but in a book where we don't have the opportunity to have that conversation with your readers. I love that you chose caution and kindness as your baseline, and then moved forward from there. I think that's really, that's a beautiful way to handle the sort of semantic, semantic drift controversy that happens, right?

[00:20:55] Lili: Yeah, I mean that was important to me and you know, the same, yeah, and the same with certain dog breed names, I do bring that up as well.

[00:21:03] Emily: Yes. Yeah. I mean, there are horse breed names too that I'm like, I don't use, I just called the horse Vanner. I'm not gonna use the whole name because the whole name is problematic as hell. Right. Um, so yeah, for sure. I love that you are, have that, take that consideration for other people and, and populations and, and cultures in your, your word choice in the book. So can you, because another thing that I loved about the book, and I learned a lot from you in terms of the very clear, um, distinctions, can you talk more about the difference between land race, feral community primitive type? Can you sort of give people a sneak peek into the book?

[00:21:43] Lili: Yeah. So land raise. So I, you know, this was challenging because I had to talk to a whole bunch of people 'cause everyone has a slightly different definition of what a land raise is. But, ultimately I went with, there's a book by Philip Berg, I think that's his name. He's written a book, it's actually called Managing Breeds for a Secure Future.

It's actually a very dry academic book on livestock breeding. But there were like concept definitions in there that that really helped me. And, um, he defines land raise as a pre-B breeded dog. It's kind of like a breed class, but they are less standardized. They're still the phenotype of dogs. While land racers are shaped by the environment, by geography, by culture, by the work they do, what, people of, they're like regional, rural types of dogs.

So on. So if you can imagine a sort of continuum going from no breed dogs to pure purebred dogs on. On the end of that continuum, we have standardized breeds. These are breeds with standards. They have, it's all written down on paper, what they should look like, how much they should weigh, how long their legs are, what colors they are, what type of coat.

Those are our standardized breeds. And then on the other end of the con, and they're predictable because people made them to be predictable. We know the genetics, we know, we decide what, how we want to see them and how we talk about them. They're, they're, the dogs are written in books usually on the other end of the continuum.

You've got no breed dogs. They're like village dogs. They breed freely. They genetics are not under human control. And somewhere in between the two, closer to the purebred end are the land racers. There are dogs who have a somewhat consistent look and somewhat consistent temperament, but they live, they're shaped by geography and they're shaped by culture.

They're still shaped by people, but they're not standardized. So there's more flexibility in how they look. So they're the land racers. That's how I see it. And then you've got village dogs. As I said before, they're no breed dogs. They're. Their traits are shaped by survival within a certain region.

Feral dogs are not actually a type of dog feral dogs. And, and I take a lot of these definitions from Sinor. Panal has written a book called Dog Nose, and she's done a lot of speeches or presentations about street dogs. Feral dogs are just dogs that are really scared of people. They're, we call them wild dogs.

Only because they're not socialized to living within human communities and they may live on the outskirts of human communities. They're not like a distinct type of dog that any dog can turn feral or be born in a feral condition. Community dogs are free-ranging dogs who, who live amongst people.

They're not feral dogs. They're, um, you know, their mode of life is living. Outside, they don't live. They tend not to live inside homes and they're not owned by any one particular person. And street dogs, um, fall into that category.

[00:24:47] Emily: Yeah. Thank you for that. 

I think you did. It was really beautiful. It was a, a really beautiful eye-opening way of delineating these different types of dogs. Because to me, like I was thinking of feral more in the sort of like original definition of feral, which is like, a feral dog is a feral animal, is either a domesticated animal that has.

Gotten out and is no longer under human control or a species that has been displaced by humans from where they're endemic to a new place and they've sort of settled in. But even with even with under that definition, there's still a lot of fluidity because, for instance, the horses who live free roaming in the United States were feral.

They were brought here by colonizers in the 15th and 16th centuries. But. Because they have lived here successfully and live in harmony with the ecosystem, and they've been doing that for 500 years now. They're technically classified as wild. So it's like, okay, well what year? What year did it switch over from peril to wild?

Right? So like, there's so much, there's so much fluidity in these definitions and it was really beautiful to hear. The specific, the specificity with which we use feral to, to refer to a very specific type of dog who is avoidant of humans, right?

[00:26:08] Lili: And, and yeah. I mean, all these categories are fluid. I mean, the way you draw the line between. These categories will change, you know, depending on where you are, who you know, the context. Similarly, like whether a dog is a breed or not a breed, depends on who you speak to. Like for example, like a Kennel club.

I mean within outside the Kennel Club system, you know, there are breeds, but they wouldn't be considered breeds within the Kennel Club system. You know what I 

mean? Yeah.

[00:26:37] Emily: Yeah. So that I want, I wanna do like a real world application thing to see if I'm understanding the definitions correctly. So a few. Maybe it was, I started to say a few months ago, I don't remember when, a couple seasons back, um, I interview viewed a friend of mine named Kaylyn Hall, and they live in Alaska and they work with, um, Husky, with sled dogs, with Huskies.

And they said something that I had kind of noticed but hadn't really clearly articulated for myself until they said it in their interview that what we think of as Huskies in the lower 48 are like not actually the working. Huskies that are up in Alaska and, um, so like the really pretty, like what you think of as like the fluffy sort

Wedge ear and the big blue eyes and the big bushy curly tail, um, that you think of as huskies are like show line huskies that couldn't physically actually do the job that Huskies in Alaska do.

And that Huskies in Alaska don't really have a body type or like a parti a specific morphology their bred. They're the dogs who can do the jobs, right? And so they look different. And I had kind of, I'd sort of like noticed that in like watching TV shows about dogs, like who run the Iditarod or whatever.

I was like, those don't look like the fluffy House, house dog Huskies. But when they articulated that in their interview, that was like, that kind of made a big impression on me. Like, oh, yeah, I, I did see that, but I didn't articulate that for myself. So would I be correct in understanding that the actual working huskies in Alaska are land, race dogs and the, um, Huskies in the United States that are, or in the lower 48 that are so popular is a breed? Is that a good example?

[00:28:20] Lili: I think breed is a very fluid concept as well. Like, you know, it's kind of a cultural construct, so I would, but, um, I would say that the type. The kind of husky use the show line Husky, they're standardized to, they have different, they're bred to different standards than the Huskies up north. The sled dogs are bred to a working standard, a performance standard, and the ones for shows are bred to show standards.

And that's why they look different and they have, they're different. Physically and athletically, they have different traits.

[00:28:56] Emily: So they would still be considered a breed. They're just they're just a working line versus a show line.

[00:29:02] Lili: Yeah, I would say so. But then whether they're considered a breed will depend on who you talk to. You know, some, some, you know, there are people who are snooty who say, oh no, that's not a breed, that's a mixed breed, or whatever, you know? I mean, there are people who would have that perspective.

[00:29:15] Emily: That's fascinating. Okay.

[00:29:17] Lili: Yeah. But then there are also people who would, see, but as you say, they land, they could also be seen as land raisers because they're so this is years and years ago I read a book by Edith Gallant, Edith and Johan Lanko, SOS, and it was about these, it was written by these two purebred dog breeders who kind of moved out of the Kennel Club system and.

Started promoting, you know, writing about Africanness, which is a land raised type of dog from South Africa. And I've just lost my train of thought in a minute. Oh. Yes. So either I mean, I had some email exchanges with her and they were very adamant about not confusing. Land racers and breeds. So they wanted that boundary to be quite firm you know, a purebred dog is the type of dog that is bred for the shows for confirmation.

And land racers do not have standards. We don't breed to the same standards. These dogs are usually free breeding. They choose their own partners. So, so that was kind of a distinction that was made to me.

[00:30:24] Emily: Okay. That's actually really helpful. So the Huskies, and, and by their definition, by Edith's definition, the Huskies in Alaska aren't. Considered land races because the humans do selectively breed them, or, or it's in some way to some measure control their breeding or direct their breeding.

Whereas a land race really they, there is no human interference in their breeding. Is that a

good distinction? 

[00:30:48] Lili: I think that it's a, it's something that's on the spectrum. I don't think it's that hard and fast. There are dogs that are bred for working like the Mongolian Bancar in Mongolia. That's considered a land raise, but there is some human shaping happening there, but they are bred to be adaptable to their environment versus for show.

I think that's a better, there might be a better comparison.

[00:31:14] Emily: Yeah. What I'm hearing is that it's really complicated and

fluid and like you said it,

um. 

Yeah, again, a conversation worth having and also being aware that it's that complicated and that there is that much of a spectrum helps to sort of remove that hierarchical or cast mindset that we have about dogs and like, which ones are intrinsically better than others.

It's like, that's not really how it works. They all just kind of do their things and they have a right to exist and they're, they're each amazing in their own way and all of that. Yeah. I love that. Okay. Thank you for that. I don't remember if you cover this in your book, so I'm gonna ask you because I have a Biji puppy.

Miley, 

[00:31:56] Lili: I've 

seen the pictures. 

Yeah. 

[00:31:57] Emily: I've always, I've loved JI'S for, for a very long time, most of my life.

And I'm very fascinated by them because yeah, they are a breed

and there is a breed standard, and there most breed clubs around the world recognize them as a breed. And yet if you look at JIS in Africa they kind of feel more land racy there.

 So where's the, what are your, where's the line?

There's not a line, right? There's there, it's a spectrum. a fuzzy gradient, but, 

But, so what I consider, like Miley, who's been very carefully bred, they know her lineage back

generations. Um, I, I would call her type of baji a breed, but when I see these baji in Africa who have enormous amount of freedom they're not quite community dogs because there are people who have.

Very tight relationship with these dogs, but they do have a lot more freedom than our Basenjis. And they, it seems like they kind of might have a little more choice in who they breed with than maybe they're not as controlled. Is it possible for, we're looking at a dog like a biji to, in some places, be a land race in some places, be a breed.

Is that a thing?

[00:33:05] Lili: Well, a land race is just a different class of breed, I think uh, going by like, you know, it's a different type of breed. It's rather than a stand. A fully standardized tight, you know, small closed gene pool type of breed. And then you've got a big gene, open gene pool type of breed. So it's 

just,

[00:33:22] Emily: okay. I'm still, as you can tell, I am still trying to wrap my head around this, 

but. 

I think it's a good thing to like to kind of delve

into this and, realize it's really

tricky. 

[00:33:33] Lili: it's really tricky. So I had a lot of conversations like these before as I was writing about, because I was trying to wrap my head around all these definitions. But, and there's many different ways you can, different angles, you can approach it. But like I, so there is that page in my book on purebred dogs where I've created an A chart, land racists, village dogs, crossbred dogs, and then it.

Through the steps into recognition as a pure breed, right?

[00:34:01] Emily: Yes. Yeah. What page is that on? Again? Do you remember off the top of your head? 

[00:34:05] Lili: off the, I dunno off the top of my head, but I can get the book right now and I can 

look it up. 

[00:34:11] Emily: If somebody asked me what page something in my book was on, I would have no idea. I wouldn't have the foggiest clues. So I know that was a bit of an unfair question to ask.

[00:34:20] Lili: pages 20 and 21.

[00:34:22] Emily: Okay. Pages 20 and 21 is where that is. Yeah. That is a really helpful infographic. And also having learned it, having read it, the, you know, in the original manuscript and then in the book. Clearly is not enough for me to like fully wrap my head around it and grasp it, but it's okay. I enjoy the state of learning.

[00:34:42] Lili: I think, um, what I wanted to do was, with this book was just to put information out there and to as conversation topics, as conversation starters, as things to think about. I'm not, I don't have definitive answers. I don't, so many. So much of this terminology is sort of in flux. Like, you know, it depends on the situation, depends on who you're talking to and what different people's agendas are and so on.

So I'm just putting this information out there and I hope that it will, spark conversations and questions and curiosity and debate and. And this is so this is cool, like, 

[00:35:23] Emily: yeah, I mean, I, it is so important because you, and you even talk about in the book about how like, even when we're talking about like breed standards and breed types, lineage really impacts that. And that is so true. Like the JIS that I knew in Austin. One of the things that I loved about them is that they were kind of aloof towards strangers and and they didn't really care about them.

Now, oftentimes because of the way that they the way that humans reacted to that, um, they would end up behaving aggressively towards strangers, but. I could see that they mostly just didn't, wanted to not care about strangers. And I think that's so beautiful and I, I love that. And I, I I admire, I, I enjoyed that trait about jis.

Um, I like the dogs that don't really care about me until I build a relationship with them. And so when I found a, my breeder up here. She's amazing. I love her so much. She does extraordinary work and her dogs are really prosocial towards humans and that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing for the overwhelming majority of people who get a Basenji puppy.

It is gonna be a advantageous for that dog to be prosocial towards other humans. But if I were to say baji are aloof towards humans, that would be patently false about Miley and her lineage and her family, where she comes from. Um, so it's not, it's not necessarily that, that, that baji are aloof.

It's that the lineages that I knew in Austin were aloof. And the ba, the Baji from Miley's lineage are very pro-social and she's, when she meets another human, I am chopped liver. Like, she's like, oh my God, it's a new friend. I need to make the new friend Mom. I don't care about you right now. I'm gonna go meet my new friend and we're having to work on learning.

When people want to be her new friend and when people don't want to be her new friend. And we're learning how to ignore the pe, the people who don't want to be her friend, and it's very hard for her. And it's a, that's a lovely problem to have. And also that is not what I knew of the CJIS in Austin, you know?

[00:37:25] Lili: That's so interesting. That is so interesting because the, I mean, that is. That's what I've heard as well, that like JIS and primitive type dogs, they're they're supposed to be aloof and be more like cats. 

[00:37:37] Emily: Well, Miley's very like, 

yeah, very Miley's, very much like a cat in that she likes to drape herself over my shoulders. So she's very kitty like in that

way. She likes to walk along. The, like narrow edges of things. Like she likes to walk balance on the back of the sofa. Um, she likes to jump up to high places.

She, it's not going to be very long before she can jump from the floor to my desk. So she, she has catlike tendencies. She's a very fastidious groomer. So she's, she's very catlike in some ways, but not in that aloof towards strangers way at all.

But you know what, I know lots of cats who are very pro-social towards

strange humans too. So even that that stereotype about cats isn't always true. Even cats have outliers.

[00:38:23] Emily: Yeah. Okay. So aside from the okay. We've talked about some of the biggest aha moments that, that you got in researching this book. Are there specific. Either breeds that you didn't know about that delighted you, or in like certain information about breeds that you didn't know that were just delightful discoveries to you.

[00:38:44] Lili: Um, so I, I think what's the, let me think. So the things about breeds that I found really fascinating is how well, you know, usually in dog breed books. Each breed is given a sort of like general temperament and, you know, like the idea that breeds have personalities. Uh, I mean, I, I find it interesting that a lot of the information, the narratives that go with breeds they change, they can change over time.

Like, um, for example. Or whether a dog is a breed or not. That changes also depending on culture and country. For example, like Belgian Shepherds in, um, I dunno if you know about Belgian Shepherds. So in Belgium, they are all the same breed. There's three different, three or four different varieties of Belgium Shepherds.

But in the UUSA they are different, they're considered different breeds. And then there were. Certain dogs where their countries of origin change over time. Like, um, for example the AAN short head hound and the AAN Longhead hound, um, they were Yugoslavian dogs. But then when Yugoslavia split up into different countries, there was some sort of debate over who was gonna get these dogs.

And, um, apparently there was, it took several years before the FCI assigned. Croatia as the country of origin. And then there's like the Finnish spits, which has, when Finland was annexed by Russia, like they took that breed and gave the different name. I, I can't tell you off the top of my head what their name was.

And so the, it got split into two lineages and then eventually in the fifties or sixties, they became one lineage again and they were break to the finish standards and. The name, there was a name change again. So, I mean, a lot of these things, these details are changeable. They're affect, I mean, dog breeds co-evolve with people and what happens in human cultures.

And I, I, I think that's really interesting. That's super nerdy, but yeah,

[00:40:47] Emily: No, it is, it's, it's fascinating because the dogs are the same, right? And these like big debates are happening about. Our constructs around these dogs and, and our story, the stories that we tell ourselves about them, and the dogs in the meantime are just living their lives and they have no idea 

[00:41:04] Lili: they don't care about any 

of this. 

[00:41:07] Emily: I just, that, humans are delightful. We do some really interesting things. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well this has been delightful. As you know, at the end of every interview, I love to ask the same set of questions, and my first question is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:41:26] Lili: Well, what I hope this discussion sort of offers is the idea that breed cannot predict as much as we give it credit for. The idea of breed breeds reflect a lot more about us than about dogs. They tell us more about humans and what dogs mean to us symbolically and also in our lives. I think I, I'd like, I hope that comes across.

[00:41:50] Emily: Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. And, and same, same. I also hope that's the takeaway of today's, of today's episode. Um, what is one thing that you wish people knew either about this topic, your profession, or enrichment? Your choice.

[00:42:04] Lili: Um, I'm. Sort of combine some of these things about this topic in my profession. So most dog breed books are written by dog fanciers, dog historians, dog breeders, people who are very invested in the breeding of dogs. I'm coming to this subject from a different angle. I'm coming to this as an artist, as someone who's drawn thousands of pet dogs and who's had a pet dog.

And I'm just curious about where does my pet dog fit within the broader scheme of things? So I'm ordering uh, sorry, I'm offering a more personal perspective. And, uh, I just want people to know that it's from, it's different because I'm an artist and not. A scientist or a historian.

[00:42:45] Emily: Yeah, it reminds me of, robert Spolski's book, behave, and I talk about this all the time. Um, apologies if you've heard me say this before. I, because in his introduction to that book, which is an amazing book and also a flawed book, but one of my favorite things about the book is in the introduction.

He uses this. Analogy about, of buckets. And in that, in the context of his book, he's talking about academia where like a particular field gets really deep in their bucket. And the deeper you are in the bucket, the more depth of knowledge you have in that field, but also the, the less perspective you have on other fields, right?

Because you're just so deep in your bucket and so. The, I think it's a beautiful analogy because there, I feel like practitioners, we don't have depth in any of the buckets, but we have perspective of all the buckets that a lot of the people who are deep in the buckets lack because they're deep in the bucket.

And so we do better when we work together. When academics and practitioners collaborate, we do better because they have a deeper perspective and we have a broader perspective. And what I'm hearing is that this analogy also applies because when a dog fancier or a dog breeder. It's talking about their breed.

They're deep in the bucket, but they lose perspective because they're so deep in their bucket and you are coming at it. You're not a breeder, you're not, uh, you don't have a lot of investment in any particular breed. You have a really broad perspective and you spent a lot of time getting deeper into all of the buckets than I think most.

Of us on the outside of the buckets do. But nevertheless, I think you have a broader perspective than a lot of people who are writing about their particular breed, that is their passion. And I think that's beautiful and I think it's really valuable. And like I said, it's my favorite thing you've done so far.

I love this book so much.

[00:44:34] Lili: Thank you that Robert supposed book is on my two read, two read list. I haven't read it, but I love that analogy of being outside the buckets and seeing, and it did feel that way. And, and as I was researching, I kind of felt like, you know, should I go deeper into this bucket or that bucket? And, thankfully I had a deadline and I didn't have a.

Too lost within a single bucket. And, um, yeah. But I really love that analogy and I do try, I say a zoomed out perspective. Yeah, that's what I was going for.

[00:45:07] Emily: Yes. Yeah, I will say I, 10 out of 10 recommend, behave. And also just as a warning, the beautiful irony of Robert Sapolsky understanding the, the coming up with a bucket analogy and understanding that academics get deep in their buckets and and lose perspective on other buckets, is that two chapters after he writes that analogy, he just gets.

Behaviorism is so wrong. He's so deeply wrong about behaviorism

[00:45:35] Lili: I think a lot of people are,

[00:45:37] Emily: Right, but it cracks me up because it's like, dude, you know, buckets, which. In critical thinking, that's called the halo effect. When you overestimate, when you have a lot of knowledge in one area, you overestimate your knowledge in other areas, like the glow of your halo gets cast on

fields, and we get to see this beautiful example of the halo effect two chapters after he talks about it in the bucket

analogy. So that's just my warning to you, just beware. He's very wrong about behaviorism, but it's

still an incredible book regardless. So

[00:46:08] Lili: Alright. All right. Uh, okay. I'm now even more interested to read this book just to see when you get strong about behaviorism.

[00:46:15] Emily: it's delightfully imperfectly human of him and I, I love him more for it. All right. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field or the field of animal behavior or breeding? Whatever fields you

[00:46:26] Lili: yeah, I, well, I think this sort of is a very general thing. I, I, I think there are a lot of myths, as you know, as a dog behavior consultant. There's so many myths that hold us back from listening to and respecting dogs as individuals. And we know that a lot of ideas, outdated ideas about behavior kind of get in the way of that. And I think. Breed, essentialism also gets in in the way of that. And you know, the idea that a certain breed or a type of dog has a fixed type of personality, or they have a fixed traits. And I hope this book shows that these are ideals we have, they're not real dogs, and that our ideals are changeable and the way we think about dogs, is really dependent on context and dependent on so many things, and I hope it all comes back to seeing and hearing, listening to dogs as individuals.

[00:47:17] Emily: Yes. I love that. Look at the animal in front of you. Listen to the animal in front of you. Instead of making assumptions about them based on what breed they are or what they look like, what their morphology is, what do you love about what you do?

[00:47:30] Lili: Um, I get to look at lots of pictures of animals. I get to draw animals for a living. I get to draw what I wanna draw, and people pay me. I mean, I, that's, I love that and I love that. I know a lot of great people. Like I, I know a lot of passionate, nerdy people. That, that's meant as a compliment.

[00:47:49] Emily: Yes. I also use nerdy as a compliment. It means that you're really passionate about something and you've spent a lot of time learning a lot about it and I love that. I think it's a compliment. Yeah. Yes. I, I love that. I love that about what I do too. We have that in common. Where, what are you currently working on? If people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you?

[00:48:10] Lili: Okay. I'm currently working on more infographics for different clients who are animal pro, animal behavior professionals. I'm also creating art for my online shop, and I am collaborating with a snake expert on snake body language, illustrations, which I'm, I've because it's the year of the snake, 2025, uh, and people can find me@doggydrawings.net, which is D-O-G-G-I-E-D-R-A-W-I-N-G s.net. That's my website. And, um, yeah, and my socials are all on there as well.

[00:48:45] Emily: Awesome. I'm gonna put you in touch. We had somebody from Pet Pro named Thea Harding. On the podcast a couple seasons ago and she, she's a bunny. Yes, she's a bunny person. And on, on her episode we talked about how we want you to do bunny stuff. So I'm gonna put the two of you in touch and see if you'll collaborate with her on bunny stuff.

[00:49:04] Lili: I would love to, I have actually done something bunny related. I do on my, if you, on my website, in the under infographics there is a bunny body language chart. yeah.

[00:49:16] Emily: Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. Okay, well thank you for letting me know. I'll let Thea know too, because that's what we want. We want bunny, bunny buddy language stuff, so Awesome. All right, well, thank you Lili, again, so much. It's been lovely to have you back on the podcast. I enjoy speaking with you so much and I appreciate everything that you do.

[00:49:34] Lili: Thank you so much for having me. That was a lot of fun.

[00:49:36] Emily: Yeah, it was.

[00:49:38] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony.