#130 - Mike Agruss: A Nuanced Approach to Dog Bite Advocacy

Content Warning: This episode does include discussion of dog bites. 

When a dog bite happens, emotions run high—fear, guilt, anger, confusion. In today’s episode, host Emily Strong is joined by Mark Agruss, a personal injury attorney out of Illinois. For over two decades, attorney Mike Agruss has stood beside clients navigating those stressful moments, advocating not just for their rights, but for a fair and nuanced approach that considers both people and dogs. In this conversation, Mike shares how his own dog bite experience shaped his empathetic yet effective legal work, why insurance is a critical but often overlooked safety net, and the simple steps that can prevent life-changing incidents.

We dig into dog bite statistics, what they do—and don’t—tell us, common misunderstandings about “dangerous breeds,” and the intersection of legal advocacy, prevention, and responsible pet guardianship. If you live with dogs, work with dogs, or love dogs, this episode will shift the way you think about safety, liability, and advocacy.

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen): 3 Key Takeaways 

1️⃣ Insurance is non-negotiable – Whether you own or rent, make sure your policy covers dog bites. It’s an inexpensive safeguard that can prevent devastating financial fallout.

2️⃣ Prevention is powerful – Simple management strategies—like giving dogs a quiet space away from parties or teaching kids respectful interactions—can stop most bites before they happen.

3️⃣ Dog bite cases are about insurance, not revenge – Pursuing a claim doesn’t mean targeting the dog or its owner; it’s about accessing the coverage that exists to help everyone move forward.

For the full episode show notes, including the resources mentioned in this episode, go here.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Mike: my favorite part about what we do is we're going after insurance companies. Um, we're helping people out who have no control, and we immediately turn the tables. And I just, I absolutely love that. So people call us in, um, a moment of stress and chaos, whether it's a car accident, whether it's a dog bite. They don't know what to do about work. They don't know what to do about medical bills. They don't know what to do about insurance. The moment they hire us, we take care of all of that for people and then just turn the tables as much as I enjoy working with adjuster adjusters and getting along with them and getting good results from my client. Um, people who don't have lawyers, uh, I see this all the time where insurance companies just take advantage of them. I can't tell you how many times, um, people contact us and they're like, I called the insurance company and they offer to like, pay my bills and to gimme like $2,000. And I like, should I take that? And then like six months later we settled their case for like $75,000 i, I love it that someone can come to me in a very chaotic, uh, disruptive point in their life, and I've done this for 20 plus years, um, and I love being able to just say like, Hey, I got this. You take care of yourself here. Go get medical treatment, rest, get better, and I'll take care of everything. And, you know, it just, it takes all the pressure off and all the ca you know, the chaos going on in someone's life. 

[00:01:23] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:36] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:37] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:57] Emily: The voice you heard at the beginning of today's episode was Mike A Mike has always wanted to be a lawyer and his own disempowering experiences as a child made him committed to using his legal practice to empower his clients as a result.

By his own words, I always knew I would represent individual clients and not companies, businesses or insurance companies. Mike has been practicing law for over two decades and focuses on representing dog bite cases. I love that. Like us, Mike is in a profession where it would be really easy to take a punitive, retaliatory approach, but instead he chooses to use his position to empower his clients and advocate for them and for dogs as well.

In this episode, you're going to hear Mike and I talk about how Mike turned his own experience with a dog bite into advocacy for others. How I turn into a trial lawyer when I get real mad. How the list of most dangerous dogs is accurate to an extent, but it's way more complicated than you might think.

And simple things we can all do to improve everyone's safety, including the dogs. All right, let's get into it. Okay. Tell us your name, pronouns and pets.

[00:03:10] Mike: names, pronoun name, pronouns and pets. Mike Agruss pronouns. He, him, and I have one dog, Maisie 

[00:03:18] Emily: Maisie. What

kind of dog is Maisie?

[00:03:20] Mike: Maisie's? A rescue. She's a 20 pound Bernice Mountain dog poodle Cavalier King Charles. So her mom, I think was like a 40 pound, dog, and her dad was like a 10 pound poodle.

[00:03:35] Emily: That's very cute. That sounds like an incredibly cute combination of breeds.

[00:03:40] Mike: So what's interesting about her is she's like some hybrid, highly desired dog um, that some breeder in central Illinois um, they couldn't sell. And my vet is part of a rescue league down in Decatur. And so my vet got a dog through this rescue league a couple years ago. I'm like, oh my God, your dog's adorable.

And he's like, oh, I know a rescue league down there. I'll let you know if anything ever pops up. What do you think happens? Something popped

up and here we have Maisie.

[00:04:09] Emily: Amazing. I love that. Amazing. In, I do not apologize for my puns. Okay. Tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:04:17] Mike: Uh, Sure. I'm an attorney. I've been practicing law for 21 years next month. I've had my firm for 13 years. We help people um, who've been injured. Uh, We have a, a focus on dog bites. Um, And not only do we help people who've been bitten by dogs, but when I was in law school 20 plus years ago, my dog bit me in the face. Um, unprovoked. I know what it's like to go to the emergency room, uh, get stitched up by a plastic surgeon, um, and go through the whole process of being pressured in the emergency room to fill out an animal control report and all of that stuff. So, not only do I do this as a lawyer, but I'm also familiar with it, um, on the side of being bitten by a dog.

Um, but I'm a huge animal lover. Fortunately at the time, um, I didn't have any kids, wasn't married, um, and just went to a trainer and learned how to. Interact and have my dog interact with other people so everyone would be safe. Um, But anyway, that's, yeah. Where I've come from and where I'm at today,

[00:05:18] Emily: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's, it is really scary for everybody involved when, when dog bites happen, so I appreciate you sharing your personal experience with that, and I'm sure that that helps you be empathetic and supportive of your clients as well.

[00:05:32] Mike: absolutely. And so, not only have I been handling dog bites ever since my first job at law outta a law school. I'll never forget the first case that I handled, but yeah, I know what exactly what it's like to be bitten by a dog and, you know, it was in my face and it was scary.

And, um. Yeah, so I, I feel like both my experience as an attorney and also just my experience going through this ordeal, I'm able to give people a lot of, um, good advice on what to do, even if it's just as far as treatment, managing dogs, you know, even if people, I give people advice all the time who don't even pursue legal action, but just tell them like, Hey, here's what you can do. Um, here's how you can, you know, make the situation better. I've got young kids, I've always had dogs. We have a dog now. And so, yeah, I deal with this all day long.

[00:06:17] Emily: Yeah, so let's. Let's start by talking about dog bites in general. Um, because my impression after being involved in animal welfare since 1990 is that most people in animal welfare related fields don't have a real grasp on dog bite statistics. And I think that is made worse by some like, breed discriminatory websites that intentionally skew those statistics.

Um, but that can lead to a whole lot of misunderstanding and, and misperceptions and misinterpretation. And since your area of expertise is dog bite laws, I would love to hear your take on dog bite statistics. Like what they actually are, the real, the really real. And where, where the real risks lie. Um, Where are some maybe overblown risks and what are some of the risks that maybe get glossed over?

And obviously I need to like just preface this by saying, if an animal has teeth, it can, they, that animal has the potential to bite. So, there's always a risk, like humans are also a risk, like interaction with humans also risks violence occurring. So, I'm not saying that there's, there are situations where there are no risks, but where are they maybe overblown?

Where are they underrepresented? Where do they get glossed over all that stuff? Talk, talk to me. Gimme the skinny.

[00:07:36] Mike: so here's the deal uh, with dog bite statistics. So at least what's reported, and this is reported all over the place, there are about four and a half million dog bites per year in the us. I actually think that number is low. And the reason I think it's low is because oftentimes it's unreported, right? So when we're helping people out with dog bites, most of the time we're dealing with family members or we're dealing with neighbors. Um, so we have a lot of cases where, um, someone is going after family member's insurance or they're going after neighbor's insurance. And then we have a lot of situations too, which I would imagine, like me, when I was bitten in the face by my dog and was brought to the emergency room, I did not wanna report it.

I did not fill out an animal control report. I didn't wanna anything to happen to my dog. So statistics say four and a half million. I think that number is higher, uh, because it goes unreported. And then that also takes into consideration bites that, you know, maybe your dog nipped you, or it's a puppy and you know, there's like a scratch on your finger and you don't do anything.

So breaking that down from four and a half million, which I think is an. Very low number, considering that's what's just reported. Uh, 800,000 bytes a year require medical attention, so that's probably getting more accurate because once you're at the hospital, even if you don't report it to animal control, at least the hospital's keeping track of it. So four and a half million bytes a year. 800 people, 800,000 people require medical attention. And then distilling it down even further, uh, they say 330,000 people are admitted to the emergency room every year for dog bite injuries. Most injuries are puncture wounds to the hands and arms. Not surprisingly, 60% of dog bites are to children and, um, very low number.

As far as fatal attacks, it's anywhere from like 30 to 50 deaths per year as a result of dog bites. I think in general though, as far as how many happen per year, I think it's very under-reported. Um, simply because you're dealing with family, you're dealing with friends, and you're dealing with neighbors.

We do represent people who go to a dog park and a stranger's dog, you know, will attack their dog and they'll try to intervene and they're bitten by a dog. Um, but for the most part, you're dealing with people you know, and when you're dealing with people, you know it pro it goes unreported. Right.

[00:09:55] Emily: Well, yes, usually

I have some nightmare stories of neighbors being inappropriate and, um, actually trespassing on my client's property and the dog biting them in the, the dog's home where the neighbor was not invited in and the neighbor pursuing legal, legal charges. And I'm like, I don't understand how you can be trespassing and have a leg to stand on legally, but that's why I'm not. Not a lawyer because that's not my job.

[00:10:24] Mike: you sound like a lawyer because you bring up, there are two defenses in Illinois, um, and you got one of the defenses. And what's interesting about this, they're complete defenses. Meaning if you provoke a dog or you are trespassing, you cannot go after someone, um, and get paid out by insurance. Those are the two defenses in Illinois and every state's different, but about 35 states in the country have what's called strict liability. That means the dog owner's responsible for any injuries caused from a dog bite, period, minus two exceptions, trespassing, and if someone provoked the dog. So the example you gave sounds like a lot of neighbor, uh, neighborly drama that we deal with often where. Were they invited over? Weren't they invited over?

Did they jump the fence or whatever. But I think the most extreme example that people would understand is if you have a dog and someone breaks into your house and the dog bites that person, clearly the person who breaks in doesn't have a case. And then we have, uh, the other defense is provocation, right?

So if you're pulling the dog's ear, pulling its tail, you know, poking at it. I had a case that was super interesting last year where my client put her arm around the dog to take a selfie picture. And the dog didn't like that and bit her in the face. Um, so trespass and provocation are the two defenses, and it comes up a lot.

[00:11:42] Emily: Yes, unfortunately I was, I was in a state where that was not the case and, and the, the plaintiff won the case and I was like, how is this justice? But it's fine. I can go to therapy for this. We don't need to talk about this today on the podcast. Um, so in terms of like with your direct experience working with clients, um, who have been bitten by dogs, do you see situations, okay, so we just talked about like provocation and trespassing, right?

But are there situations that you see like a recurring theme where you're like, y'all, you can avoid, your dog biting somebody and you being, just taken to court over it if you do these things, so like, what are the things that you see are like common recurring themes where like, this could have been avoided if blank.

[00:12:30] Mike: great question. A lot of times people know that their dog may have aggressive tendencies, may be anxious, may be nervous especially with neighbors who both have dogs. So for example, we see this a lot where, um. One of my clients is bit by a neighbor's dog. The neighbor's having a party. There's a lot of people in the backyard. Their dog is anxious, and then the neighbor next door has a dog. And so they're going back and forth between the fence. It's um, if you have any question, like if, if you're concerned at all about your pet for whatever situation or for whatever reason, especially in a social situation, especially when there's kids involved, put the dog away. You know? Like we, um, for example, I grew up with dogs. We've always rescued dogs. I always got my dogs from the Chicago Humane Society. And then when I was older, I got my first dog from, um, humane Society out in Orange County. We've rescued dogs and all of this. Maisie we've had for a couple of years prior to Maisie, we had two dogs and, um, both of our dogs were older and a little bit cranky when we'd have people over. And there were little kids over, we would just put, put them in our bedroom, food and water. Just let them hang out. Just you don't have to worry about it. So it's a lot of, um, simple steps that you can take to prevent it. I hear this a lot from clients where they're at a family member's house, they're at a friend's house, they're at a neighbor's house, there's a party, there's young kids around. Uh, there's just a lot going on and all someone has to do is put their dog in a kennel, put the dog in a bedroom, and just keep them away from the chaos of what they're not normally used to. And I think that that would prevent a lot of dog bites.

[00:14:12] Emily: Yes, absolutely. I fully agree with you and I will tell you that, um, on my end of it, where. I my work with these clients, the reasons that they don't do that is, there's two primary reasons. One, they feel social pressure to have their dogs be a part of the family, so family members are pressuring them, like, bring your dog over.

Our dogs can play together, things like that. The second reason that people do that is because they're afraid that they're not giving their dogs enough of an enriching life, and they don't want to, their, their perception is that confinement is depriving their animal of enrichment. So. What a lot of what we do when we're working with cases where the dog has a bite history is we teach people how to make that confinement enriching for the dog.

So it's, so we kind of get rid of that false dichotomy. It's not either you take your dog out, give the dog enrichment and put everybody else at risk, or your dog has to be confined and live in an under enriching environment. You can keep everybody safe and also give this dog everything that they need to, um, have a really good quality of life and meet all their needs while they're in that space.

So I think that's something that I wanted to add to what you were saying is like I absolutely agree with you and also the reasons that people do that are because of fears that aren't true. And we also help clients, we coach clients through how to have like, set boundaries with family members. Like, no, I'm sorry, we're not, our dog would not enjoy that. I know that's what you want, and we are gonna do what our dog needs, and that's, and our dog does not need to go play with your dog. Our dog is not going to enjoy going to the family barbecue. So that's the other component of what we do is we help coach clients through how to set boundaries for combating that social pressure that got them into the situation in the first place.

[00:16:05] Mike: Yeah, I totally agree with you. My kids are 10 and eight. My son's 10, my daughter's eight. And all our family members have dogs. And before I had kids, my dogs were my kids. Now that I have kids, I'm obsessed with Maisie. My wife makes fun of me. But like once you have kids, the dogs are dogs.

And anyway, my wife and I used to joke that once we had kids, like our family members used to bring their dogs over, we'd have dogs, and we had a new household policy that was we are not BYOD, bring your own dog. You like that? So we are not A-B-Y-O-D house anymore. I don't want your dog at my house, right? 'cause when you have kids, it just, it totally changes things. And that was one thing that we had to train our kids, 'cause when they were born, our dogs were older and cranky, um, you know, hearing issues, seeing issues, and you know, when you're old and cranky and you know, it hurts to walk and if someone bumps into you or accidentally steps on your foot, you know, you might hear a growl, you might hear a snap.

And I mean, these dogs were 15, 20 pounds. They're tiny, but you got a, you know, we, we spent a ton of time teaching our kids that, um, and when we had older crankier dogs and, you know, the kids wanted all their friends over, we would just put 'em away. It's fine. Everyone can say hi to the dog when they come over, but like, as the party's going and everyone's running around, I don't want anyone, you know, to accidentally step on the dog, or do something or, so, yes, I mean, the very simple just lock your dog up, put it in a kennel. Don't bring it to the family barbecue that, um, I mean, I was trying to think like, I would say most of my dog by cases are that, um, we do get the, you know, like we do get a situation where someone's like, I was out walking my dog. Someone's dog was not properly tied up, or the door was open, the dog gets out. And we do see attacks like that, but a lot of times it's literally parties, family gatherings, or you know, the dog's not used to a three-year-old who is eye level with the dog, and pokes, and prods and pulls and throws everything and the dog growls and gets mad and snaps.

[00:17:59] Emily: Yeah, I, yeah, I mean, all of that is so, is so real and it's so true. And I, I think that, um. One of the things that you brought up that is really important is, I mean, you didn't say it directly, but the kind of the, the, the thing that you were discussing with all of that is that, um, nobody in that situation has the skills to navigate, um, dog child interactions, right. And so like that, that's the problem is like. Um, It's not that children can't be taught how to successfully interact with dogs. That's literally our job. Like at Pet Harmony, like this, we, that's one of the things that we do. Um, It's not that guests can't learn boundaries and rules and skills. That's also our job.

We also teach clients how to teach people who come over how to appropriately interact. It's that when nobody has those skills and you bring everybody into a shared space all at once, and you don't have the, you don't even have the ability to do really smart antecedent arrangement and to do really smart like, um, skill building, then it is going to go sideways.

It, it's going to go sideways because you have a bunch of unskilled individuals sharing a very small space. Right? So it, it's almost guaranteed, like I'm shocked that it doesn't happen more often than it does, right.

[00:19:15] Mike: Uh, totally. I mean, I could um, probably one of the more, most serious cases we ever handled. I mean, It's, it's a really sad story. New Year's Eve party. This dog was a retired canine dog from the police force. Massive German Shepherd, retired canine dog, had cancer, was going through chemo. Ch I mean, like, just really sad. Sad, like it, and they had people over with a bunch of kids. And what do you think happened? And it's like all they had to do is just put the dog on the bed or like upstairs, you know, just, uh, block off this, just something. Um, and it was really scary and sad and a three-year-old girl was bit across the face by this, uh, German Shepherd. And it's, you know, it's awful. And it's sad. And it's scary and like, you feel bad for everyone involved, right? And then you think, and you're like, man, all those things with like old cranky, sick, on medication and then we're having a party with a bunch of young kids around. I mean, it just, um, yeah, it happens all the time.

So that was a, a terrible case, really sad case all around that we handled, and I'm an animal lover. Um, and so I, you know, I, I feel bad for the animals too. Like the dogs should have never been in that situation, right. A lot of family gatherings, a lot of backyard gatherings, a lot of parties and houses, and the dogs are, you know, stressed out, new environment, new people. Um, and then especially with kids just being eye level and, you know, I mean, kids don't have impulse controls. They, they don't listen. My 10-year-old doesn't listen. You know, it's like, what do people expect's gonna happen, you know?

[00:20:50] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's exactly it, is that like you're dealing with children and, and children don't have those skills and they don't yet have the fully developed prefrontal cortex where even if they don't have skills yet. They can, they have the ability, like the neurological ability to go, wait a minute, is this a good idea?

Like they, they physically can't do that yet. Like their brains haven't developed that much yet, right? So if without having a professional come in and teach you how to teach your children and, and help you teach your children how to wor, how to safely be around dogs it, it is, it is a really, really high risk.

And you can't control, you can't force your family members or your friends, whoever comes over. You can't force them to hire a professional to come teach their children how to safely interact with your dog. Like you can't do that, right? So like, there's, there's so, there's so many layers of complications into why that like management strategy, just keep the dog outta that space is so much.

Better. It's just the better recommendation for the majority of people. And if you are somebody who really, really wants to have your dog out, then the only way you're gonna do that safely is by hiring a professional who can teach you all of those skills, teach your dog the skills they need, teach you the skills you need, teach your children the skills they need, teach you how to teach your guests the skills that they need, right?

That, and it's a lot of labor and it's a lot of time. And so what we tell clients all the time, like, if this is your goal, I will support you through the whole thing. Also, this is what it's going to take for you to reach your goal. And you can decide at any point that the labor is not worth it to you. And then we can talk about what en enriching management looks like instead.

And that's the, that is the conversation that we have with clients. 'cause I think a lot of people don't realize how much work goes into making their ideal, idealistic dream of having their dog at the family barbecue really takes right.

[00:22:51] Mike: Yes, agreed. And I went through this when I was in law school and my dog bit maybe, 'cause people were asking me, I mean, it literally missed my eye by like half an inch. And people, I had nine stitches under my eye. I had a plastic surgeon come into the emergency room to fix it, my nose, my mouth, like things got scratch uh, scraped and scratched and bleeding. And people were asking me if I was gonna put the dog down. And, um, like I said, I didn't have kids at the time. And what I decided to do is um, I asked my vet to refer me to, a trainer who specifically had experience with dogs who had bitten before. And what's interesting is, um, I, I was the one who needed to be trained. It was, you know, the trainer said, look. If you decide to keep this dog, here are the things you need to do. Don't pick the dog up ever. Don't roughhouse with the dog. Don't lay on the dog. Don't. Even though I wasn't doing any of that stuff, I mean, it was, I I was, this was 20 something years ago. I was in law school.

I smoked cigarettes. I was out front stoop having a cigarette and my dog was sitting next to me and I literally just put my arm around the dog, didn't even pull the dog in and just, he just turned and snapped right across my face. But it was, those were the things that I needed to learn. 'cause I used to pick him up. I used to cuddle with him. I used to bring him in my bed. I used to like wrestle with him and rough house. And so I made a decision to learn. How to interact with him. That would be, you know, a way that would reduce this as much as possible. And then I also knew, like, okay, I was careful when I took him on walks when people would come up and want to pet him.

And, I would, I would just say like, you know, no thanks and, you know, just, just to really just be super, super, super cautious to just never be in that situation again. I kept him until he was, man, he was probably like 12 years old. He was super sick, you know, like he lived a very, he came from a kill shelter in, um, uh, Santa Ana, um, in Orange County. And anyway, I kept him his whole life. He got super sick and I ultimately had to put him down. It was really sad, but I, I had him for years and years and years after that. And the point is, is like the trainer taught me how to interact with him to make sure that things would be as safe as possible. 

[00:25:02] Emily: That's

beautiful. I mean, first of all, I love your commitment to your dog even after that happened to you. 

[00:25:08] Mike: He was my boy. 

[00:25:10] Emily: that is, that's so beautiful. And I love that that trainer taught you how to keep yourself safe around your dog. And I will just put it out there for the sake of the podcast that we've learned a lot about behavior in 20 years.

And so now our, the way what, what we focus on, I mean, and not every training methodology or ideology does this, but those of us who are paying attention to the research and to enrichment and all of that, what we now do is we teach people how to, very careful in addition to like, doing things like, yeah, like, don't put yourself in, in, in dangerous situations with your dog, right. Um. We

teach people how to read body language so that they can listen to and appropriately respond to animals so you can have a conversation with that animal.

We teach people what a dog's ladder of escalation and deescalation look like so they can, um, accurately identify where their dog is on their stress sequence. And we, we teach dogs how to seek a safe space instead of seeking conflict. So how to move away instead of moving towards how to communicate and say, no thank you.

How to opt in and opt out of things. And, um. also how to say no in a more polite way. Like we teach diplomatic skills of like, you don't have to go from zero to 60, instead of being like, I'm fine actually no, I'm a cut you. Um, We teach dogs how to have this like, um, diplomatic process, right? So like we are capable of doing so much more now.

And even still, even though that is true and we still do that, the things that your trainer taught you are still the things that we recommend that our clients teach their guests. And there may be some other cues that, like, it depends on the search circumstance, right? Um, There may be some cues that we can teach our clients to teach our guests how to do, but in general that just like, here's, here's like 1 0 1, how to protect yourself when, when you're around a dog is like the bare minimum of what you need to be teaching people if they're gonna interact with your dog, especially if your dog has a bite history, right?

[00:27:11] Mike: Yeah, totally. And, and it was something, you know, I grew up with dogs where um, we could always carry them. We could pick them up, we could put 'em on the couch, we could put 'em on the bed. They would, they, I, my dog growing up is there was this little like poodle mutt from uh, anti cruelty society in Chicago.

And I had a dog bed in my room and this was like junior high and high school. And she would literally sleep in my room, in the dog bed and she would sit or like in the dog bed on the floor and she would literally sit there and pace until I would like tuck her under the blanket on the dog bed. So that's what I was used to. And so when I got my first dog in college on my own, he was a. Wheat and terrier chow mix. He was male, not, you know, he wasn't like the cute little poodle that weighed 20 pounds, you know, he is a 60 pound dog and, chows, there's, they might be on the list of people that to talk.

So anyway, I just, I didn't know, and I was doing things that I was used to, growing up with dogs, with him, and then, you know, and then I wasn't doing anything just sitting next to him. I put my arm around him and he bit me, and then I was like, okay. Took a step back. The trainer taught me. But yeah. What you're talking about now, 20 years later, I've, I've watched a lot of trainers and videos and I think it's super interesting to learn about like dog body language and what they do and the warnings they give and, you know, giving them like even our. Sweet Little Maisie has her own kennel with like a really comfy bat on it, and she likes going in it on her own, right. And so she has that spot and to give dogs those space. And so, yeah, I'm sure things are, although some of these things are the same 20 years later, but I'm sure there's a ton more going on now that's, you know, interesting. And once again, the cases that I handle or the, the people I help or, uh, talk to and give advice, it's, it really, like when you look back on it, it's, it's not that complicated. I mean, I, half of my cases are people in, uh, social situations that are 10 times crazier than the dog is used to. And there's usually a small kid involved. 

[00:29:04] Emily: Yes. I mean, I think that's that, that, what you're telling me is very much in alignment with my experience on the other side of this as the behavior consultant who's supporting the people who have the dog who bites, right. And so I think, um, what one of the things that I, I really wanted you to kind of speak to is we do encounter clients, I mean, I, my selection bias with the clients that we work with, with our, um, ICA, our demographic of clients, we don't encounter this, frequently, but we do sometimes get clients who aren't taking it seriously enough. Like they're kind of dismissive of it. And I think part of that is a fear that if they acknowledge that it's a serious problem, then they're, they might be acknowledging that they, they feel like they're acknowledging failure on their part, which they're not, it's not a failure on their part.

Or they're, uh, admitting that their dog is a monster, which their dog is not a monster, right? Um, or they're acknowledging that, oh, they've got a lot of work to do and, you know, we're all busy and we have limited resources. And so all of those fears are valid, but them kind of, dismissing or denying not taking it seriously is not doing them any favors.

So how do you, when you encounter people like that. Who are like, not taking it seriously enough, who are kind of being dismissive, how do you talk them through? How do you help them to realize, like, no, let me tell you, as the person who is working for the plaintiffs here, let me tell you what you actually have to lose. So how do you, what does that conversation look like for you?

[00:30:43] Mike: It's really hard because I see people I, because I deal with this all the time, and I deal with people who are bitten by dogs, and I've been bitten by dogs. I see things all the time when I'm out, like walking my dog, or I I, I'm at the dog park or UCP. It's, it's really hard because I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna overstep, I don't wanna, I am, I am usually the person someone's talking to, probably much like you. It's after the fact, right? So what I do, uh, through clients and like, uh, social media and all, is to just try to educate people as far as, um, you know, here are warning signs. Um, like, here, here's a perfect example because like you said, it's an animal that has teeth and stuff happens. You know, what's wild about our dog Maisie right now, who's like the sweetest dog in the world?

And I do all the wrong things because I mean, like. I, she loves me. Like we cuddle on the couch. We, she sleeps under the blanket next to me. She follows me around. She's in bed. Like, you know, my wife thinks I'm nuts with this dog. It's so interesting you say that my, there's one person in the house that the dog will occasionally growl at my daughter. And we have to explain, I've never, I don't even know if I've ever heard Maisie growl. It's like when I'm not around, Lila's doing something to her, and we constantly have to tell Lila, you can't, you know, like, you can't, put like a, a blanket on her. You can't, you can't pull her by her front legs to get her closer to you. Like, these are things that you can't do. So I see it a little bit at my house with my dog. Um, but m most of the time we're dealing with it. It's, uh, it's after the fact. And so, um, I. My, my best advice for people, um, having seen this for 20 plus years. Uh, simple things, and to bring it sort of like full circle what you're talking about.

Like, I've got the sweetest dog in the world. I've, she's never done anything to me, to anyone, nothing. She rolls on her belly, loves belly rubs. So randomly a couple, like every other month, she'll quick growl at my daughter. If you have a dog in Illinois, make sure you have homeowner's insurance or renter's insurance. It's, it's that simple, right? It's like you have a car, you have car insurance because shit happens. Shit happens with dogs. Make sure you have renter's insurance or homeowner's insurance and make sure you're covered because if something happens, you wanna make sure that you have insurance to cover it.

[00:33:00] Emily: it would be awesome if we lived in a society where insurance was not how we were able to protect ourself. I think that, like more mutual aid type societies would be ideal and we can work towards that. And in the meantime, that's not the society we live in. So insurance is the, the thing that you have to do to protect yourself.

[00:33:20] Mike: Well, right. And like, and sorry to interrupt, but it's like,

It's like we do all these things uh, like safety with cars, right? So there's anti-lock brakes, there's uh, sensors that will automatically stop your car. We've got airbags, we've got all of these safety protocols, and, but at the end of the day, people still get in car crashes and everyone, you know, in Illinois you're required to have car insurance. And that's why people have it. And it's the same thing with dogs, right? Like, you never think something's gonna happen. You don't want something to happen, but you wanna make sure that if something happens, 'cause at the end of the day, they are animals, they have teeth and you never know that you do have insurance and renter's insurance is inexpensive.

You can probably get it for like 25 bucks a month and be covered. So in case something happens, you have insurance, just like car insurance, just like having health insurance because things happen. 

[00:34:06] Emily: Yes,

absolutely. Yeah. Um, and I think a lot of people don't think. I know, I don't even know that it's about, don't think I, I am not sure that a lot of people even realize that insurance to protect themselves from dog bites is a thing. So like, just being like helping people be aware of that, that, you know, like yes, that's, that's part of why you have homeowners insurance or renter's insurance or whatever is a thing.

And um, and it's the same like in our field, there's, it's, we, we work in an unregulated field and, um, so there are a lot of people who go around doing this job and don't have professional insurance and it's like, well that's scary, right? liability insurance as a professional who works with animals who have the capacity to bite I mean, that's one kind of extreme sport.

Like if, if that's how you get your rush like you to you, but, but like, that's not I, I'd rather do base jumping if I had to choose between those two things. Thank you very much.

[00:35:04] Mike: A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah. So, get insurance, like I said, renters, make sure you're covered. Uh, the great thing in Illinois, it's is different in other states. Like for example, in Florida, Florida, happens to always be in the top five uh, states where the most dog bites happen. Um, Florida homeowners, homeowners, and renters insurance doesn't cover dog bites. It's wild. Um, so in Illinois, um, unless you have some sort of exclusion or, you know, you gotta be careful, there's like breed exclusions as well. So in Illinois you might have automatic coverage for homeowners and renters. Um, however, if your dog falls under these 10 breeds, you might not be covered. So, yeah, it just, um, totally.

If you have a dog in Illinois, even if you rent, just get renter's insurance and then you're covered. 'cause the last thing you want to happen is, you know, your dog bites a neighbor or family or something. And even if it's not horrendous, that person's gonna have medical bills. You know, like even like we tell people, for example, like even if you have a puncture wound, we tell people like, it might not seem like a big deal. Like, please go, go see a doctor. Make sure you get the vaccinations, make sure we've seen really small bites turn into just like horrendous infections. And so we always tell people to, you know, go get medical treatment and get checked out. So even a what seems like a no nothing bite could trigger several thousands of dollars in medical bills, couple of doctors visits and stuff like that. And the last thing you want to do is be stuck with someone who's like, Hey, your dog bit me and I have $5,000 in medical bills and I can't pay that. 

[00:36:37] Emily: Yeah, yeah. So you brought up something that I actually am really curious about. Does your experience with dog bites align with the breeds that are like the, the dangerous breed de jour? Like, there's even, like every year there's like top 10 most dangerous breeds. Um, Does your experience align with that? The, those sort of like classifications of dangerous dogs? In terms of like the dogs who are biting, doing the biting.

[00:37:03] Mike: Yes, it does. Um, And I post about this on social media videos. I talk to people about it. I do content about it. And if I do any video on social media and mention the word pitbull, whether I say they're the best dogs in the world or the worst dogs in the world, I get the most responses. Good, bad. It just, it's it's triggering for people to say the word pit bull. But yeah, to answer your question I, I, I don't get a lot of calls from people who are saying they were bit by fuzzy Bernice poodle Bijan, 20 pound poofy animals. We have a lot of cases, and I know when I say pit bull, people are gonna jump down my throat and say, that's not a breed, it's a, you know, we, but look we get people who contact us, and I was attacked by a pit bull.

Some of the worst cases I've seen and handled are German Shepherds. Um. I don't know. You know, it goes back to how many people are bitten by dogs a year. I don't know if this is like a reporting issue, or if it's like, well, yeah, if, if you're bit by a 20 pound dog, the chances of someone being seriously injured and requiring medical treatment is probably less than if you're bit by an 80 pound German Shepherd. Right. Unless there's an infection. But it's like, my dog's not gonna, you know, she's this tiny little animal, she's not gonna rip your face off and require you to have plastic surgery. Um, whereas a bigger dog, whether it's a lab, a German shepherd, a doberman pincher, like a, a Labradoodle, a poodle, they have a bigger mouth, a bigger bite, and, um, but yeah, I mean, the short answer is yes, we get, most of our calls are people who are bit by pit bulls and German shepherds. 

[00:38:40] Emily: That. Is fascinating and, um, I believe you, and also I'm really curious as to why that is. Um, and I think like you touched on some of that as like. You know, they are the large dogs, so they have the capacity to do the most damage. Um, I, I have sus face every time I see those lists because when I was in, in the nineties, when I was working in a vet clinic, our in the clinic reported by most dog bites were cocker, spaniels, dachshunds, dalmatians, sharpes, and, and chows.

And, and then, um, in the aughts. We didn't, I didn't see I was in a different place. I was, I don't know, there were different, there were differences between what I was doing in the nineties and what I was doing in the aughts. But, um, we didn't, I didn't see any aggressive cocker spaniels, but it felt like every healer that came in was biting every blue healer, uh, or like, you know, cat, Australian cattle dog.

And, um, we had this big run of golden retrievers who were severe resource guarders, severely anxious, and so golden retrievers, like America's family dog was on the top list of dogs who were ab biting. And so like what I was seeing in vet clinics of being the dogs who are biting the most. Did not align with the, the list of like the, the top breeds.

And so anytime there's a misalignment like that, my question is always what selection biases are at play? Like what, what is happening that like what we're, what we're seeing in our selection bias is different than the one that's being reported.

But I will say that there are like, first of all, there are lineages. So like breeders will breed dogs and they, they have these like cluster of people who are all cross-breeding with each other. And so then they have these do like their breed has these moments or these eras of specific breed traits and then they correct that and breed it out of it. So I do think there is something to be said for like specific breeds having like peaks and valleys in terms of their behavioral soundness.

But I also wonder how much of it is, um, almost like a. Self-fulfilling prophecy of like, we believe that pities are dangerous. And so we treat them dangerously. And so then they have crap people skills, so they bite, you know? So I'm wondering how much of that is part of it. And I also wonder how much of it is like people not understanding breed tendencies and then exacerbating things.

I, I see this a lot with. Pities and with, with, with herding breeds where people don't understand their breed typical behaviors, and they react poorly to those breed typical behaviors, and then they cause aggression as as a result of that. So you don't have to answer any of those questions for me or solve any of that, but I just find it fascinating that your experience aligns with the kind of dangerous breeds, because that's not, that's, that has not historically been my experience.

Although when I worked at an animal sanctuary, we did a, I did it for two years. I documented all of the petty type dogs and their dog skills and they were as a group, significantly, significantly, I can't remember, it was like a 24 76 split, if I remember correctly, but it was a decade ago of like their, their ability to have good dog skills versus like the other uh, breed types in, in the, sanctuary. So there, there's a kernel of truth to all of it, right?

[00:42:15] Mike: Yeah, totally. And it's, you, you bring up something that's interesting that got me thinking. So we're, I'm super into data technology, ai. I run my law firm like a business. We use all this, like I've invested so much in technology and data and reporting and all of this, and so we keep track of tons of things and this is you, just like a light bulb went off in my head where this is probably something, I, I would just, I would be curious to myself to learn if we had like a dropdown menu of like 10, 10 breeds and when people call that we just, you know, drop it down and select it. I, I will say this, that we get calls a lot. On pit bulls, we get calls a lot on German Shepherds. I'm part of this Facebook group where, um, people talk about dog bites and facial traumas, and I see

that as well. And I think the first time I ever heard about this, or the first time I got a call, someone called me like a month, they were actually referred to me and she said, um, it was, uh, um, some sort of doodle mix.

And I, you know, it's, and it's interesting, I, I can't minus that woman who called me. She was a, uh, she cleaned houses and the dog, uh, bit her in the hand. Anyway, I don't know if I've ever gotten a call on a poodle before. Even though this was a poodle mix and she was like, oh, it was like a Labradoodle or something, but something that you don't hear about a lot.

Um, and so whether any of this is true or not, or it just, these are the people calling or though, you know, like of course if you have a hundred pound dog versus a 10 pound dog, no matter what it is, the a hundred pound is bigger with a bigger mouth and can cause more, you know, I don't know. Um, but you got me thinking that I should probably, I should just keep track of it. 'cause I'm, I'm curious. 

[00:43:52] Emily: Yeah. I mean it would be interesting to find out what you track and also I wouldn't be surprised if your general sense of what's happening aligns with your data because of the populations you work with. And also the data is skewed for you, especially because you are getting the people who the bites were bad enough for them to seek legal help, right. Um, and so like what, to your point of like the bigger dogs who can do more damage, I think I, German Shepherds have, have struggled for decades. Um, pities have struggled for the past couple of decades. I mean, they used to be rock solid dogs and then we did stuff to them. Right. So, so, but it would be really interesting to see what happens because I.

I I think it is way more complicated than everybody turns it out to be. And that, and I'm not saying that to dismiss anybody's experience, I'm saying that because I have a real problem with bleed breed specific legislation and breed exclusion and insurance and things like that. And that generally comes from skew data, right? So, and, and skew data and public perception. So, that's my, my little advocacy tech talk, Ted talk.

[00:44:56] Mike: no, I, I hear you and I, I find it interesting. And I, I don't know if anyone will ever really have the answer to this, just because, once again, if, if you get into a car accident, like in Illinois, if you get in a car accident and you've got property damage over $500, you're required to report it.

So I feel like most people, and most car accidents are probably reported, right? Because people want their insurance to fix it. So even if it's just property damage, whereas dog bites, it's, you, you don't, like, I was bit in the face and had nine stitches by a plastic surgeon. I didn't report it. And that was like, to me, that's pretty serious, where I'm sure you've got a lot of these little dogs that bite people and it's like, oh, I'll just like, I'll wash my hand and put some neosporin and a bandaid on. So maybe little chihuahuas are biting people nonstop, but no one's reporting it, 

[00:45:43] Emily: yeah. Well, and to your point about the doodle, when you said that my, like internal like knee jerk reaction was like, yeah, welcome to Tuesday. And then I realized that the reason I think that way about doodles is because I spent eight years in Utah. And Utah has terrible breed diversity. The overwhelming majority of dogs in Utah are doodles, herding breeds, and hound dogs, and that's it.

And, and not even all hound dogs, scent hounds in particular. And so you just don't see a lot of breed diversity. So of course, doodles are going to be overrepresented in that population in terms of bite cases because there just aren't that many other dog breeds to compare to. Right. And so you may have in your area fewer doodles.

Than we had in Utah. And also you may have, I think you know, where the part of Illinois you're in has a lot like higher caliber of like training quality like resources than the most of the state of Utah does. So that also may reflect some differences in like how often a doodle is prone to bite. So there's just so many different factors that go into this.

[00:46:48] Mike: No, no, totally. And one, one additional layer to add onto this from what we're talking about is I get calls nonstop of people who have horrific injuries from dog bites. And I can't help them because the owner doesn't have insurance. So. I might get five phone calls and I can only help one or two people. And so if those one or two people are in my system and I am keeping track of things and data and what's going on, there is another three people who aren't in my system who I don't know a ton about. Um, and so unlike auto accidents where most everyone has insurance, and in Illinois you're required to have uninsured motorist, meaning I maybe once or twice a year, we have to turn someone away because there's no insurance, because no one's driving with insurance or whatnot. We, we can't help people all the time, every single day with dog bites because, people don't have insurance, they don't have renters, they don't have homeowners. Um, they don't know who the dog owner is. You know, there's a lot of like variables. Like we have some people who are walking down the street and there's a dog who, oh yeah, I've, I've seen it in the neighborhood and it bit me, but I don't know whose dog it is. So it just, it complicates things. And I, I don't have a clear cut answer. We're like, you go look up data on how many car crashes there are in Illinois, you're gonna get an accurate number, how many car deaths per year? You're gonna get an accurate number. The dog stuff is just all over the place.

And you bring up a really good point where like, um, it could just be based on what dogs are around.

[00:48:14] Emily: Yeah, it, I think in summary, it's complicated.

[00:48:17] Mike: It totally is. I, I, I will say this, the biggest trigger that I can say that pe like whatever, if I say pit bull, no matter what I say after that, there's people who are commenting.

[00:48:29] Emily: Yeah, I mean poor, you know, the pity type dogs. I, I feel really bad for them 'cause they have been heavily politicized. And so like, that is the thing is now people have these really big reactions. It's really hard for people to listen to each other and like, dig into the dialectics and find out like, you know, how two seemingly opposing viewpoints can actually have commonalities and there can actually be a, like, mutually true things that seem in opposition.

And it's really hard to have those conversations because there's just been this like polarizing politicization around these, these poor dogs. So yeah, it is hard. It is hard. I'm just gonna throw out there because. I, I wanna get to our kind of final questions, but I just wanna say for, for people listening there are two, there are two programs that specifically help create safety and build relationships and skills around kids and dogs.

One is um, the Family Dog, which we have family dog certified folks on our staff. So find a trainer who is Family Dog certified. The other one is Living with Kids and Dogs by Colleen Pelar. Um, That's another great resource for, for you if you have kids and dogs and you want, or if you're a behavior professional and you would like to help your clients protect their children and their dog.

From each other. Um, Those are, those are the two programs that we strongly recommend and Colleen has a lot of resources beyond just courses. The Family Dog um, course is like a certification program for dog training professionals and they have resources for clients as well. So throwing that out there for anybody listening to this who's like, oh my God, yeah, I need to take this more seriously. Those are the two avenues we recommend. And those resources will be linked in the show notes.

[00:50:13] Mike: Awesome. I was gonna say, can you send them to me? 'cause I would love to share them. We do newsletters every month. We're constantly posting on social media and I'm always trying to help people out. And here's the insurance you should get and here are things that you can do because once again, a lot of this is, it's just some basics and some preventative measures you can take. And you know, like one simple thing that we've ingrained in our kids is anytime you see any dog with someone, you always ask, can I pet your dog? Just ask and just wait. And if they say yes, you hold your hand out the back of your hand. Let the dog approach you and sniff, you know, just like super, super basic stuff. And if anyone's ever hesitant, I tell our kids, like, if you hear any hesitancy or pause, just say, oh, okay. No thanks, I'm good.

[00:50:57] Emily: That is beautiful. I love that so much. I just like, yeah, ev if everybody did that, the, we would live in a very different society. If doing nothing else, that alone would be a massive cultural shift for us. Not just for children, but for dogs as well. I love that. Thank you for doing that with your kids.

and, and thank you for sharing that as well. I love that. Okay, so at the end of every interview, I like to ask the same set of questions. So the first one of those is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:51:34] Mike: Two things. If you have a dog, make sure you have insurance. Even if it's just renter's insurance um, there's a ton of carriers out there that will offer it for 20, 30 bucks. Get it. It'll protect you. Second thing I always tell people is if you're bitten by a dog, no matter how insignificant it seems, go get treatment.

Go to an urgent care, go to a minute clinic. You want it checked out, cleaned out, stuff like that to make sure there's no infection. Um, And I'd say the third most important takeaway that I tell people all the time is if you have a significant bite, especially if it's to your face have a plastic surgeon check it out. Not in a million years would I have ever thought to have a plastic surgeon. Um. Do my stitches. And the only reason I was fortunate enough is my dad's in the medical field. Uh, he met me at the emergency room. I went to the hospital, he went to, uh, and the ER doctor was gonna stitch me up. Um, and my dad said, Hey, will you page the plastic surgeon? And I remember this specifically looking, thinking like, what are you talking about? And he's like, it's on your face. Um, you want to have a plastic surgeon fix it. So I think if you look right here, you can see this is what a scar looks like from an ER doctor when I was like three years old and hit my head on the crib and stitched me up.

But underneath, um, my eye right here, I've nine stitches and you would never be able to tell. Um, so that's the third piece of advice is, um, and I, I tell this oftentimes to, uh, parents whose kids are a bit in the face because they're shorter people. Dogs are eye level kids get bit in the face all the time. Go see a plastic surgeon. 

[00:53:04] Emily: Yeah,

I, I love that. And you are right. I know our listeners can't see you, but I would have never have known that you had nine stitches under your eye. There's not even a trace, so that is amazing. Yeah. I, I um, for, in my twenties, you know, I think twenties is the decade to be like um, excessively judgemental because you don't know enough to know how complicated everything is.

But I used to feel kind of judgy feelings towards plastic surgeons until I realized that they did more than just like facelifts and tummy tuck. And when I realized like the extraordinary that work they do with like, severe injuries and trauma, I was like, okay, that's amazing. 

[00:53:41] Mike: It is. And I've, I've met a couple of them in the area. And not only are plastic surgeons with dog bites incredible because they can help you with scars and revision treatment and all of that revision scar revision treatment. Dermatologists are great too. So we'll tell people all the time, and we help people go to dermatologists because there's laser treatment you can get done.

There's different creams. So dermatologists are a huge asset too. So for example, if you have a bite on your hand and you're like, all right, I'm not gonna go see a plastic surgeon because of that. Um, You just brought up a great point. Go see a dermatologist. They're incredible. We refer people to them all the time.

[00:54:17] Emily: That's amazing. I didn't know that. So thank you for for, for sharing that as well. I would not have thought of that either. This is why we have you on the podcast, 'cause you know, things that we don't.

[00:54:27] Mike: Well, hey, you, you said I, you're, you said you're not a lawyer, but you talked about trespass and I was like, huh? I, yeah. You are a lawyer.

[00:54:35] Emily: I joke all the time because, uh, one of my grandfathers was a lawyer. And, um, I, I joke all the time that like when I get mad and my lose my diplomacy, I turn into a trial lawyer because I'm like, exhibit A, here's why you're wrong, exhibit B, here's also why you're wrong. Like, here's my evidence, I rest my case.

Like, I just get very, like, I, you know, so when I'm not my best self, I turn into a really dramatic trial lawyer. But no, you, you obviously have a lot of knowledge that we don't have and I, I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. Okay, follow next question. What is one thing you wish people knew about e either this topic, your profession, or enrichment?

Your, your choice.

[00:55:14] Mike: Yes, this topic. People uh, there's so many people who don't know about this, and we're always telling people, if you, if you're, if you suffer a dog bite you and you, you have medical bills, you have a scar, you have lost wages, whatever it is, you are not going after the other person individually. You are not going after them individually. You're not going after their dog. Their dog is not gonna be put to sleep. You are simply going after someone's insurance. It's the exact same thing in a car, in a car accident case, right? If you're in a car accident, and even if you're not injured and someone causes $2,000 damage to your car. Of course you're gonna submit a claim so you can have insurance pay it.

Um, so this is one thing that people, you know, they always call up and say like, I was at a family member's house. My son was, bet I don't want to go after my sister, she's my sister. And I said, look, you're not, it's simply people have insurance to cover these types of claims. You're not going after an individual, you're not going after, you know, animal control so they can put the dog down. You're simply just going after insurance. So that is a big thing that people are not aware. If you suffer a dog bite, it's simply going after someone's insurance. You're not going after an individual or the dog. And so I think when you explain it to people that way and you're like, Hey, it's like you would never go get medical treatment and be like, oh, I have health insurance, but don't use it, right? Of course you'd use it. Car accident, of course you can use your insurance. So that's what it's there for.

[00:56:33] Emily: Yeah. I really appreciate you saying that. Um, uh, just like on a personal note, I'm, I'm on the board of, um, a restorative justice organization and and so like we look for, like, I think a lot of people misunderstand what restorative justice is, and it's not like excuse, like letting somebody off the hook because, bad things happen to them in their life.

It's about how to have like, accountability and community support and, and the restorative justice actually works within the, the current existing judicial system. But the reason that I'm bringing this up is because I have had experiences in. Other states, um, where it has been very retaliatory. And it's, to me, in my, from my perspective, it's been a kind of an abuse of our system of like, we're going after the dog. We're not going to to to rest until this dog has euthanized. We'll go after the vet if the vet refuses, like really, really hostile and, um. When like I read your bio, I was like, okay, you are, you are working within our existing system in a beautiful way because for you it's not retaliatory, it's justice seeking.

You're, you're fighting against these big companies who will do everything they can to avoid a payout. And that is an extraordinary way to operate within this system. And um, so I really, I just wanna say like, I appreciate you how you do your job, because in a perfect world, neither of our professions would exist, but we don't live in that perfect world.

And so you are doing your job in the best possible way that somebody could do it. And I really appreciate you for that.

[00:58:08] Mike: Oh, of course. Thank you. I always tell people, everyone hates lawyers until you need one

[00:58:11] Emily: Yeah, I, I don't hate lawyers actually. I hate, I hate our, our justice system. I, I don't think it's a very just justice system. And, we can work towards improving it and it's certainly better than before our justice system existed. So, we're improving society through iterations, but I think you do do a really good job. Thank you for, for advocating for your clients and also for the dogs. That's, that's incredible.

[00:58:35] Mike: Thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:58:36] Emily: Yeah. What is one thing you'd love to see improved in your field?

[00:58:40] Mike: Oh, I wish lawyers were nicer. 

[00:58:43] Emily: Okay. To each other, to their clients, to the public. What do you mean?

[00:58:47] Mike: I love my job. I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer since I could walk. Um, there was never a doubt that I would be doing any of this. Um, I try to get along with everyone. Um, I've got really good working relationships with all the adjusters at the insurance company. I try my best to get along with everyone on the other side. Yeah, I, um, uh, as far as. Being a lawyer I wish people were just a little bit nicer to each other. I think it goes a long way. And if I have a good working relationship with someone on the other side, I'm gonna get a better result, faster result for my client.

And at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. But as far as, uh, so I guess that's one thing as being a lawyer that I would like to see changed. And then, you know, as far as like seeing all these dog bites and seeing what's going on with people who I can help, people who I can help, um, like we talked about in the beginning, I'd say one thing, um, I would like to see change or be different is just to have, if it was as simple as, you know, social situations with kids and a lot of people around, and if you have a dog, it's probably best to just take the dog outta that situation for that high stress, high pressure, tons of chaos situation. Um, it probably avoid 50% of dog bites.

[00:59:57] Emily: If not more. I think that's being conservative. Yeah.

[01:00:00] Mike: Right. I'm trying to be nice.

[01:00:03] Emily: Yeah. No, I appreciate you. Um, all of that is, is excellent. Thank you. Um, what do you love about what you do?

[01:00:10] Mike: What do I love about what I do? I grew up in a very dysfunctional household, uh, did not have a lot of control over situations. The, my favorite part about what we do is we're going after insurance companies. Um, we're helping people out who have no control, and we immediately turn the tables. And I just, I absolutely love that. So people call us in, um, a moment of stress and chaos, whether it's a car accident, whether it's a dog bite. They don't know what to do about work. They don't know what to do about medical bills. They don't know what to do about insurance. The moment they hire us, we take care of all of that for people and then just turn the tables as much as I enjoy working with adjuster adjusters and getting along with them and getting good results from my client. Um, people who don't have lawyers, uh, I see this all the time where insurance companies just take advantage of them. I can't tell you how many times, um, people contact us and they're like, I called the insurance company and they offer to like, pay my bills and to gimme like $2,000. And I like, should I take that? And then like six months later we settled their case for like $75,000 and it's like, um, you know what's funny? Uh, you brought up something that this resonates with me is, uh, you're like, in an ideal world, neither one of us would, would have our jobs or be doing this, right? It's funny if insurance companies actually treated people right? I wouldn't have my job either if, if they did the right thing. Um, but anyway, it's, I mean, it's a for-profit business, so, uh, it is what it is. But, uh, yeah, that's, I love it. I, I love it that someone can come to me in a very chaotic, uh, disruptive point in their life, and I've done this for 20 plus years, um, and I love being able to just say like, Hey, I got this. You take care of yourself here. Go get medical treatment, rest, get better, and I'll take care of everything. And, you know, it just, it takes all the pressure off and all the ca you know, the chaos going on in someone's life. So, um, that's what I love about it and this is why I do plaintiff's work. Um, because I love, you know, every single person, we represent an individual client, they're in a terrible situation, and we can immediately turn that around for them.

[01:02:12] Emily: I, I, having spoken to you now, I understand why Allie, when she met you, like immediately emailed me and was like, I'm so excited to get Mike on the podcast because another thing that we share in common is that our primary goal is giving our clients and everybody in their household control agency, right?

Um, That's what we focus on with all of the learners in our care, our clients, their kids, their animals, their pets. Our, our whole job is about giving everybody involved um, choice, control, and predictability over their circumstances. And what you just said was so beautiful. Like, I, what, the thing I love about my job is giving my clients control, and it's like, yeah, we're both in the business of giving our, our, the, the, the learners in our care agency, right? The ability to like influence their own outcomes.

[01:03:01] Mike: Yeah, no, it's great. And this is um, like I am, I'm just obsessed with what I do and. Uh, My wife tells me I work too much, but I just, I love it. And it's awesome too where it's like, when we talk about control, right? So I've had my firm for 13 years, been practicing for 21. So for eight years I worked with other people. I work. And then ever since COVID, we're fully remote. I work from home. Everyone at my office works from home. We do have offices to go to, to meet with clients, depositions and stuff like that. I've never worked this much in my life. And what's funny is I've never felt this much in control of my professional life. So it's like a two-way street for me. So I love helping out my clients, giving them control back in their life. And then from a business owner's perspective and doing what we do, like I feel like I have so much control, which I love.

[01:03:50] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we, we've, we're also there like, you know, we own our own business. It's a huge machine. We have so much going on and. We all, all three of us have workaholic tendencies and we've had to work really hard to like, try to work towards a 40 hour work week. But it's hard when you're passionate about what you do. I, I, I can definitely empathize with that. Okay, so what are you currently working on? If people wanna work with or learn from you, where can they find you?

[01:04:16] Mike: Uh, Sure. So the best way to, the easiest way to find us uh, the name of the firm is Mike Agruss Law. No one can spell or pronounce my last name, so the easiest thing to do is just go 8 4 4 C Mike. It's our phone number. It's also our website. So if you go to 8 4 4 c Mike, you'll be able to get in touch with me.

We launched last year. It was sort of a pet project, pun intended. I know you said you liked punts. We have a, a nationwide dog bite site called dog bite laws.com. It's a really cool psych, great resources. It explains the law in every single state. It gives people advice, suggestions on what to do. So if you want to get in touch with me as a lawyer, 8 4 4 c Mike, if you have questions about dog bites or you're just interested in learning more about it, the websites, dog bite laws.com.

[01:05:01] Emily: Awesome. Thank you so much, Mike. It's been a joy to talk to you and I really appreciate how you show up for, for your clients and, and for dogs in general.

[01:05:11] Mike: Thank you. Yeah, this was awesome. Thank you for having me on your show. I really appreciate it.

[01:05:14] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony.