#149 - The Dangers of “Enrichment”

When we say The Dangers of “Enrichment”, the air quotes are doing a lot of work.

In this episode, Emily and Ellen unpack how things labeled as enrichment can actually aggressively miss the mark. From the “more is better” mindset to breed-specific expectations and enrichment-as-micromanagement, we talk about how well-intended plans can quietly strip learners of agency, communication skills, and stress resilience.

This one comes straight from what we see in homes and sessions every day. Don’t worry, we’re also coming for ourselves! If enrichment has ever felt like something you have to get “right” instead of something that supports you and your pet, this episode is for you.

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen): 3 Key Takeaways 

1️⃣ Communication is a need, not a bonus skill – When learners never get the chance to want something, they never get to practice asking for it. Letting needs show up is how communication develops.

2️⃣ Discomfort isn’t the enemy – Real enrichment helps learners build resilience and interoceptive skills so they can handle life’s challenges, not avoid them forever.

3️⃣ If it feels unsustainable, it probably is unsustainable – Burnout in the human is often a sign that the plan needs adjustment, not that you’re doing enrichment badly.

For the full episode show notes, including the resources mentioned in this episode, go here.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Emily: something that like a lot of people miss, is that enrichment is not about preventing discomfort, it's about building skills.

So that. Learners of all species can navigate discomfort, can navigate the world, which is often an uncomfortable place. Not always, but let's be real. Life is hard and and empower them to work through that discomfort and come out the other side of it stronger and better for having had that experience. So that's another kind of.

Component of this that we have to talk about where like enrichment in quotes is dangerous, is like the misapplication of enrichment can really rob learners of the ability to lean into that discomfort and work through it and come out the other side of it. 

[00:00:56] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:14] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:15] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. 

[00:01:35] Emily: So one of the things that we've encountered quite a bit forever, like even before Allie and I wrote the book, this has been just like a recurring theme in our experience with people and how they think about enrichment is there's kind of this more is better mindset and and what. We have further experienced after writing the book, after writing the companion workbook, after having built Pet Pro and having students in our mentorship program is that, uh, we see a lot of people trying desperately to anticipate every possible need and fill every gap, and this fear of ever being not.

Of ever letting a, a need go unmet or ever being not perfect about, about doing enrichment. Right. But you know, that that approach can backfire too because, it's kind of helicopter parenting, it doesn't let your pet have needs, which. Is important because it doesn't let them tell you what their needs are. And so a lot of times that approach can actually be the opposite of the intended effective enrichment in that it deprives our learners of agency because. we're not giving them that control over their own lives.

We're not giving them the opportunity to communicate. We're not giving them the opportunity to make decisions about how they're going to solve this problem of whatever the unmet need is. Right. Um, which means we're not giving them control over their outcomes. And then ironically, that. Increases the pressure and the guilt for us.

It makes our jobs harder. It's harder for us to take care of animals, when we are helicoptering them. so it's not good for them and it's not good for us. And also it, it's extra not good for either of us because if we are not practicing skills as a team, because one person on the team is, is constantly helicoptering the other.

Well, I say person, but pet animal, sentient being learner. the behaviors are less sa stable and the relationship dynamic is less stable because the, those skills have not been developed. Right. So that's what we're gonna be talking about today is like, how, how attempts at enrichment can go horribly awry.

[00:04:01] Ellen: The title of this episode is a little bit of a bait and switch, and the air quotes on enrichment is really important because if it's not meeting a need, it's not enrichment. So at a foundation, we said the dangers of enrichment, what we're talking about is in fact not enrichment by the very definition that we are not improving welfare and wellbeing.

But I also have seen time and time again that things like I give my animal so much enrichment. Yet there's this, this gap in a thing. And so when I see this with clients, like there have been a couple of scenarios where it has been really, really clear and one of them was a pet that was taken out on a schedule, an adult pet that had been only taken out on a schedule, the entirety of its life.

It did not know this is gonna be a little anthropomorphic. Deal with it. Shush from what we could observe. There was no indication that this pet ever felt the need to go to the bathroom that it had ever built any sort of awareness that I need to go to the bathroom. There is something that I should do. I need to go to the bathroom.

There's a way that I need this need. I need to go to the bathroom. I need to tell this to my pet parent because instead of building up the muscles and building up the, the system of, oh, my bladder is full. I should do something about that. It was every four hours or something. This dog was taken out, whether or not it's bladder was full.

And so that's one example of that. Like we're so ahead of the curve that we are not enabling our learner to be able to build. Quite literally the muscles that they need in order to know that they have a need and to meet their own need on.

Another one is, and this has been multiple people, clients, where we are doing so many foraging activities or so many training sessions or so many things like. Literally those dogs activity budget, if we were to look at what it was doing is activity, activity, activity, activity, activity, activity all day, every day. And so this creature probably never felt hunger because there were so much food given throughout the day. This creature never learned to ask for a toy. This creature never. Experience likely what it feels like to need to move their body because their body was moved for them before that started to be something that their body was indicating.

And like I said, it's a little anthropomorphic when we get down to that degree, but what we see in these situations is that these pets have never learned. How to experience and communicate that need. And on a our, our needs being met checklist that's in canine enrichment for the real world. One of the needs that is very often skipped over is the ability to communicate one's needs. And if we don't give our learner the ability to communicate their needs, we're really doing them a disservice.

[00:06:57] Emily: absolutely. And I think, you know, I've, I said this in a episode way back in the day. I have no idea when it was that we were talking about, but we were talking about working breed dogs and how so many people think that because they're working breeds. You have to give them stuff to do all day, every day.

and then people are like, oh, they're high energy. They've gotta, you know, are, are you prepared to be like treating your dog's enrichment plan like a full-time job? Like we can't, you can't do anything else if you have these breeds. And in another episode, I know we've talked about that with sledding dogs too, where it's like, people think that because they're sledding dogs, they need to run eight hours a day or whatever.

And, um. I think those are really good examples of where, that we're not actually meeting their needs because they're not learning things like independence. They're not learning things like rest. They're not learning how to complete their stress cycle. Like you said. They're not learning how to communicate, um, what they need.

They, they don't, they're not, they don't learn how to assess their own needs. I think a lot of these animals. Again, this is maybe a little bit of a stretch because we don't know what their internal experience is, but it, it looks, when we're doing these, this training with them, it looks like we have to teach them in interoception.

We have to teach them when you're this level of stress, you move away. When your bladder is this full, you ask to go out to pee, right? So it's like they don't even have the interoceptive skills to know what they need because we haven't given them those opportunities. And that's a huge disservice both to the dogs and to the humans who live with them.

Because we're putting these unrealistic expectations on people to live a lifestyle with their dog that is not sustainable and it's hard and it's not good for anybody involved. Right. And then I think like another, another place where this happens, I'm just gonna say it, I'm gonna come hard after the concept of breed specific enrichment, because we see people having these, um, really high expectations placed on them in the name of breed specific enrichment.

And a really good example of that is we worked with somebody who, um. Was working with a, a golden retriever and they had been told that because their dog is a golden retriever, they should play fetch with that, that dog for an hour, twice a day, and. That was not in the best interest of that dog for many reasons.

That was not, that did not support the dog's physical needs that did not support the dog's mental health needs. It was overlooking other things that the dog needed to do that wasn't getting done. Because retrievers need to play fetch, and. Also, it was not good for the human because it was not really tenable for that human to do two hours of fetch a day.

They weren't able to do things to meet their own needs because they would come, they had to get up early to do this for an hour before work, and then they would come home from work and they had to spend an hour doing that, and it was eating into their evenings, and so they weren't able to enrich themselves.

And that stuff makes me so spicy. I get so I get, I get Mama Bear Protective. When I see people telling other people to do things like that with their pets, that hurt, hurt both the people and the pets in the name of breed specific enrichment. Ooh, the salt. The salt just comes flying outta me. I'm just spraying salt everywhere.

Uh ooh. Ugh. Mm. Not okay. I, I just feel, so I'm making my own salsa here. This, this episode. I've got both the peppers and the salt, and I'm just making my own salsa because that is not okay y'all. It is not okay. If we had taught that person how to assess their golden retriever's, actual needs. Which by the way, we did ultimately end up doing, so this is not a hypothetical, so I should say, when we taught them how to assess their dog's actual needs, and we built an enrichment plan that was actually empowering for both of them and actually met their needs, first of all, it was way simpler and it took less time.

And secondly, they had way better outcomes. So I'm just, I'm, I'm just gonna say it, I'm coming for you. Breed specific enrichment.

[00:11:24] Ellen: Anyone who didn't know that hasn't been paying attention.

[00:11:27] Emily: Right, right. Well, I mean, I think we've talked about, like in the past I've tried to be a lot more diplomatic on this podcast, and lately I've just, I've just kind of given up on that and I am just letting myself be the direct. Spicy person that I am, and people can take it or leave it.

[00:11:46] Ellen: Look, Emily has a need of expression for allowing it to happen.

[00:11:51] Emily: It's true, it's true. Um, but don't worry, friends, I am going to come just as hard at myself later on in this episode. So fear not, I'm not just salty at other people. I'm also salty at myself. I, I hold myself. 

[00:12:04] Ellen: We're a free opportunity Salt.

[00:12:06] Emily: We're free opportunity salsa. I come after everybody. Uh, no, no, no. I don't come after people. I come after every garbage concept, whether or not it came from me or somebody else. There we go.

[00:12:19] Ellen: And I have plenty.

[00:12:21] Emily: And I have plenty of garbage concepts that come, come outta me. but yeah, I think another thing that happens too is that we see lowered stress resilience in animals who ha like every need is constantly being anti, being anticipated and taken care of before the need actually happens. These animals have no ability to work through their stress response cycle again, to learn that those interoceptive skills, um, because they never get the opportunity to do that.

So I think that's where we see a lot of. I think I, I don't know that this is true, but I suspect that the reason that there is a school of thought out there that enrichment is, um, creating, is spoiling animals or making them really anxious and, and, you know. Not behaviorally healthy is because they're seeing this, this, they're seeing something real, which is that when people are trying to do enrichment too hard, um, it actually does result in lowered stress, resilience.

And you have these dogs who can't cope with anything. Um, so I think that is the kernel of truth in that school of thought, even though obviously I don't agree with that school of thought. Right.

[00:13:33] Ellen: Yeah, there's nuance to it. And the thing I always think about, I'm gonna butcher this, I'm so sorry. It's been a long time. It's probably, oh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna admit how long ago this was. Um. I saw a talk on stress and arousal at Clicker Expo many, many moons ago, and I heard it from Lindsey Wood Brown.

Lindsey Wood Brown credited Susan Friedman. Susan Friedman credited somebody else, and that person credited somebody else. So I've lost it at three. I apparent like can't play, what is it, six degrees to Kevin Bacon or something. I can't play that game. Um, but. The part relevant to this was that frustration comes from a lack of control over outcomes.

And so when we don't allow our creatures to control the things that we don't need to control, I'm not saying that they have full control. Whatever they want goes like that's. That's not the takeaway here. Friends. I'm saying there's a lot of things that I don't care about my dogs, they are welcome to control that decision.

So for me it's little things like, uh, for Griffey, I get to do the, he eats canned food. It comes in a multi-pack of a couple of different formulas. That's okay for his belly, that's great for us. That means I don't have to care about this. I can hold out two cans of food and be like, which one do you want? And he'll sniff one and he'll sniff the other. And then he'll kind of go back and forth and then knows Target one and like, that's so easy. That is a little bit of control that I can give him that I do not care about because I don't have to care.

Leika doesn't get that same because she has to have a singular diet. So I give her control in other ways. She gets to control where she sleeps. She gets to control when I let her outside. She gets to control when I wake up at this point because she's an old lady and she gets what she wants. So we look at how can we provide control in a way that like is not detrimental to the rest of the enrichment plan.

The welfare plan, the wellbeing plan. The household giving control in a lot of scenarios that don't matter to you is gonna help in a lot of ways to reduce frustration. You're gonna have better stress, resilience, you're gonna have a better relationship, and also you don't have to carry so much weight.

[00:15:46] Emily: I think that sort of like segues into the next sort of facet or component of this, which is that I think somewhere along the line.

People, not everybody. And again, I've said this before, I'll say it again. I'm critiquing the discourse. I'm not critiquing any individual person 'cause we're all in our own learning journeys. But somewhere along the way, positive reinforcement came to mean a lot of things that it doesn't actually mean. And one of the things that it had kind of sort of come to mean is that like all discomfort is bad and everything should be.

Sunshine and rainbows. And if it's not, you're not doing positive reinforcement. Right? And like, I, that is not it. That's not scientifically sound, that's not behaviorally healthy. Uh, that's toxic positivity. And we can just dispense with that implicit belief system. 'cause I don't, I don't know how much people actually articulate that for themselves, but I see that show up in conversations.

Um. So let's just identify that, point it out, say that is an implicit assumption that a lot of people in this community seem to have. And also we need to get rid of that assumption that that is just, it does not, that's not how life works. And so I think that's something that like a lot of people miss, is that enrichment is not about preventing discomfort, it's about building skills.

So that. Learners of all species can navigate discomfort, can navigate the world, which is often an uncomfortable place. Not always, but let's be real. Life is hard and and empower them to work through that discomfort and come out the other side of it stronger and better for having had that experience. So that's another kind of.

Component of this that we have to talk about where like enrichment in quotes is dangerous, is like the misapplication of enrichment can really rob learners of the ability to lean into that discomfort and work through it and come out the other side of it. And that doesn't do anybody any favors,

[00:18:14] Ellen: And I'm gonna interject and say what we're not saying because we are not saying flood your creature. We're not saying cause discomfort. We're not saying try to. Don't put do management. What we're saying is it's a little uncomfortable when you really have to go to the bathroom and your mom's on a Zoom call and she's, she says, can you wait five minutes?

Like that is uncomfortable. It's a little uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable when you have to go to the ER vet and the answer isn't, don't take your dog to the ER vet if they need to go to the ER vet because it's gonna be uncomfortable. What we're saying is discomfort is okay because discomfort happens in life.

What I don't do though is take GR to the dog park and expose him to 75 dogs that have, they might be having a great time. I don't know because I don't go with my reactive dog. Reactive dog.

[00:19:07] Emily: Yeah. I will say, I mean, and again, I think we've said this before, but it bears repeating the difference between an enrichment based approach to. Animal care and and training versus what people call balanced training is that with enrichment, we are acknowledging that discomfort exists in the world, and we're giving our learners the tools to successfully navigate that.

With balanced training, the belief is that you have to socially mediate and search discomfort into your learner's life that you are. The harbinger of that. And then you take it away when they do what you want them to do. And the belief is that they, that's how they learn resilience. They may or may not learn that resilience that way.

I mean, we make a living off of cleaning up those messes when it doesn't work out the way that people think it does. Like that's our bread and butter. Um, but whether or not they do. The socially mediated part of inserting the aversive thing into the life is not necessary to build resilience. To build, uh, stress tolerance.

To build skill. Um, and. We achieve those outcomes by just allowing our learners to navigate that stuff and supporting them through navigating the hard stuff in life without ever being the cause of the hard, painful, uncomfortable things. So I think that is a really critical difference that like I've had people.

Comment to me before, like when we've, when I've had conversations with them about like positive reinforcement isn't the end all, be all. We need to be thinking of more things. I've had more than one person be like, oh, so like kind of a balance approach. And I'm like, no. Hard no to that. That's not what's happening here.

And by the way, those are not the only two options. The only two, the, the options are not either. Everything is positive reinforcement or balance trainer. That's not it y'all. That's a false dichotomy. So, no, we are talking about a third option. Where we just support our learners through the wide array of experiences that they will have in life, and we make sure that they have the opportunity to have a wide array of experiences.

So I think that's also the difference between meeting needs and micromanaging is, um. Allowing learners to make mistakes, allowing learners to struggle, allowing learners to move through, uh, a process, um, and, and be there for them and give them support versus making decisions for them, preventing them from ever having those struggles.

And, uh. This is where I'm going to now throw salt on myself. I'm gonna do some spicy salsa about myself. I'm telling on myself, um, I've mentioned before that Miley went through her first big girl heat cycle and came out the other side with some guarding from copper. And we've been dealing with that. And she also came out the other side with some leash reactivity towards bigger dogs.

And the first couple times it happened, I was so. Surprised and sad that my little pro-social wiggly sweet puppy was like, you know, throwing hands at larger dogs. Um, my, my knee jerk reaction was just to pick her up and walk her away from the situation. And after I did that a couple times, I was like, Hmm, this is not it.

This is not enrichment.

 This is not helping her. It's not helping me like I know what to do. I need to teach her the flight cue. I need to teach her. Self-regulation. She already has really good check-in skills in other contexts. I need to teach her how to check in in this context. I do this with clients all the time. I did this with Brie from the beginning because I knew that she had issues from the beginning.

We adopted her with eyes wide open, knowing what her issues were. Um. I, I need to, I'm doing a disservice to Miley by just picking her up. And the funny thing is, I say to clients with small animals all the time, if you wouldn't do it to a mastiff, don't do it to your dog or your cat or your parrot. And here I am, the person who has said that to, I don't know how many clients picking up my puppy and walking her away from the situation instead of using that situation as a, as an opportunity to practice skills she already has and. Giving her new skills to handle the new stuff that she hasn't experienced before. Right? So, like it, me, I'm the helicopter parent in this situation. Um, and, and I, it again, like I did it a couple of times, maybe three times, I don't know how many times, but I did it more than once before I realized this is not it.

This is not good for her, it's not good for me, it's not what I believe. It's not enrichment based training. Uh, let's, let's not do this anymore. Let's, let's do better. 'cause I know, I know we can do better, right?

[00:24:33] Ellen: And for me, there's a difference between meeting needs, so. The ultimate goal for Miley is that she's able to do that on her own. She's able to be like, Hey, ma, we gotta go. We gotta go over there. But managing is saying, I'm not gonna let us get close enough that you, you can't do some skill. You micromanaging is saying, Miley, I'm gonna prevent you from ever seeing a dog ever again, because you may or may not at any given time, have the skills and they. There's a big array between where those things are and where I see my clients get. Um, like it, it's not, it's not good. It's not good. It's not okay that they're in conditions that they are in. I got a whole soapbox, I got multiple soap boxes for a different day on how we got there, but I have enough clients that are. Have been bullied by people on the internet, not even directly, just from what they have consumed on the internet, that they are so steadfast in the micromanaging that they're starting to have their own health issues from stress.

Where my dog barks because the dog three doors down barked about something i'm failing. My dog is too stressed. My dog can't handle it. If my dog barks ever, they're over threshold and I'm a terrible pet parent. And I obviously, um, am gonna never, I'm not gonna retain any of the progress we had made into this point because one over threshold event, if this is even over threshold, is the caveat, asterisk we need to ask ourselves is going to bankrupt everything.

And that's not good for either of you. That's not healthy because barking, barking alone does not indicate over threshold. Dogs bark, dogs bark, and for my dogs interrupting the barking. I think we've got a couple of videos of this on social. I just got another one yesterday. My team knows that there are gonna be parts where I'm just gonna sit here with my arms crossed and shake my head.

I know that they're waiting for me to respond, but I can't because Zoom is gonna not let me through because my dogs are howling about something. It's about 27, sometimes it's 35. We've, we've got a range now. It used to be 27 on the. About 27 to 35 seconds where they'll howl back and forth when something, it's when Griffey gets upset, Leica doesn't get upset. When Griffey gets upset, if I interrupt that, we're gonna have 10, 15 minutes before they can relax.

If I let them go through the process and they howl and they subside on their own in 27 to 35 seconds, then they're both gonna go rah, and then like settle back in and go to sleep.

And so for them, if I was to be micromanaging them saying, no, you can't vocalize ever because vocalization is bad and you're clearly over threshold. And then everything that we've ever taught you in the nine to 10 years that we've had you is going to be suddenly forgotten. And that's not how that works, friends. I would be doing them as a disservice, and I would be so annoyed at the next 10 to 15 minutes of my life where they're hypervigilant and chirping and doing all of the things. Instead, I let them complete their stress response cycle, and then we all get to move on with our day.

[00:27:47] Emily: Yeah. I mean, I think that goes back to, uh, uh, an, I don't remember which episode because I have, I have a terrible memory, but like recently Allie and I were talking about like, um. Letting, letting our dogs have feelings. Let them have feelings. Right. Um, I, I can't imagine a life in which I wasn't allowed to express my feelings when I was having.

Big feelings. I mean, obviously there's time and places where you can't. That's what reaction formation is for friends, that like we have this built in beautiful mechanism in our body when we have an overwhelming emotion that we can't express. Our body regulates by giving us an opposite response. It's called reaction formation.

Look it up. It's a beautiful adaptive feature of the human experience and like, so I'm not saying let it all hang out all the time. Consequences be damned. I'm saying that like, I can't imagine a life in which I'm never allowed to express my feelings. This podcast sure wouldn't exist.

[00:28:54] Ellen: It would just be Ally, no response, just call,

[00:28:58] Emily: just Allie being cool as a cucumber 

[00:29:02] Ellen: except for that one where she was the pepper.

[00:29:04] Emily: Except for the one where she was a pepper. Um, everybody gets to be a pepper at some point in their life. I hope. That's what I wish for everyone. Um, but, but in general, like. Uh, that's, you know, we have these expectations of dogs. We have this belief that like if they're having big feels, it's somehow like maladaptive and we have to fix it.

And it's like, why do we have to fix it? There's sentient beings who have feelings, and sometimes in some contexts, the best way to complete your stress response cycle and get through those feelings is just to let them out. Just go through that process, right.

[00:29:41] Ellen: And again, because I know the little gremlins that people are thinking. Now, what we're not saying is let your dog have their feelings at the expense of somebody being safe. We are not saying let your dog have feelings at the expense of their own safety. We are not. It's not a free for all friends.

Like safety matters in these contexts. My dog's howling, everybody's safe. Maybe my, maybe my hearing is at risk. Let's be real. It's quite loud, but it's very cute and so it's fine.

[00:30:08] Emily: But I think like where this, uh, impacts the humans is that when people think that their pets aren't allowed to have feelings, that feelings are are wrong or bad, um.

We often see that, uh, pet guardians turn that in on themselves and they're like, oh, if my, if my pet is having big feelings, then I'm failing as a pet parent. I, I, I'm, I'm not doing right by them. And that's just super not true. That's super not true. Frustration and stress and. Curiosity and confusion are all part of the learning process, and they're all part of being alive.

And so it's our job just to create a safe space for them to have those feelings. Um, we're not, the goal isn't to eliminate them. The goal is to support our learners through them. Right.

[00:30:55] Ellen: This is something 'cause we, behaviors, behavior, friends, human, non-human, we've talked a lot about dogs. It applies to other species as well, including humans. And one of the things that we work with professionals a lot in PET Pro is you don't need to tell your client every possible troubleshooting thing that could ever happen with the exercise that you just gave them.

It's not helpful.

You should identify the risk of a couple of things that they may need to troubleshoot and maybe talk about those. But just like we want our, our dogs to be able to communicate that they have needs, I want my, my partner to communicate when he has needs. I want my clients to have the space to explore, find the problem, maybe troubleshoot it on their own or bring it back to me and be like, okay, so this didn't work 

because. That gives us a really good opportunity for relationship building, for building trust, for working through, for gaining more information. Like I don't need to prepare them for all of the things that could possibly happen because funds, the longer you're in this field, that list gets created bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

And now you spent three sessions preparing them for all the potential ways that noses to hand target could go differently than you explained. That's not helpful. Let them, let them. Maybe not get it right and then be able to bring it back to you and say, I just, I don't think this is working in some way, shape, or form for me.

[00:32:26] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think that, um, also applies to not just all the possible troubleshooting, but also all the exposition about why you're doing what you're doing with them.

Um, your, your clients don't need three pages of explanation about. Why you're doing what you're doing are dominance theory, anything like that, um, they're not gonna read it anyway. Um, and I mean, I learned that I had an experience that I will never forget because again, I'm outing myself here, where I'm coming after. I'm an equal opportunity. Salt salter salsa. Um, I like years after knowing this is true. Usually not doing that to clients. I had a client that I messed up with so bad because she was referred to me by a, a local trainer in the area who used to work for Caesar Milan and had and kind of used a lot of Caesar Milan methods.

And that trainer had showed up at one of my talks about separation related behaviors. And to my surprise. Referred a client to me because the dog had separation related behaviors. The dog, it turned out also had like really severe interspecific aggression issues on top of that, and I was so. I don't know what the right emotion is.

I, it wasn't just anxiety, anxiety, frustration, a desire to explain why everything that she had been doing with the other trainer was actually making things worse for her. Like 

I, that had, 

[00:34:10] Ellen: maybe your needs weren't met, and you should have done that before you tried to public speak in front of a bunch of people who were triggering you.

[00:34:17] Emily: yeah. It's almost like I hadn't learned those skills yet, Ellen, when this happened, but actually this client was one of the reasons I realized I needed to, to take those skills more seriously and, and do a better job at them because I, I just like exposition her to death for our, in our initial session and at the end of it, she just goes, I'm gonna be honest with you.

I'm really overwhelmed and I don't wanna do any of this. And I was like, oh, I did the thing that I tell my mentees all the time not to do. I just did it because I was dysregulated, I was anxious, I was freaked out that I got a referral from this person and I blew it because the thing that people believe about our training method is that it is too hard, it's too overwhelming, it's too complicated.

And I just reinforced that belief by overwhelming that client. And then she did not continue working with me and. I know that I am sure that she went back to that trainer and was like, I tried it. It was just too overwhelming. It's too complicated. And I so like I did such a disservice to the dogs, to the client, to the other trainer who had an opportunity to learn something better.

But I blew it and I'm not, I'm not beating myself up over it. Like that's not the take home point of this isn't shame. But it's that even when I knew that that wasn't a thing, I still had a moment where I did it anyway. And that was a huge learning experience for me of like overwhelming people is about as effective as overwhelming non-human.

This, and you get about the same outcomes

[00:35:57] Ellen: Almost like behavior is universal.

[00:35:59] Emily: It's almost like behavior's universal. And then the secondary lesson I took away from that is like, you have to take care of yourself and complete your stress response cycle so that you sh can show up for clients in the way that they deserve, right? So yeah, that was not an enriching client experience, and I apologize to that person, and I learned a lot from that experience.

Okay. So I think the, the summary is let your learners tell you what they need. Don't try to always anticipate, and if they have unmet needs or they want something, like, that's okay. That's the whole point of communication is that y'all can tell each other those things.

[00:36:34] Ellen: And I'll say the second part of that is. They may not know, and so you may need to do some exploration together. I have a lot of dogs where they're just agitated and it's not unlike a kid. I'm gonna be honest, it's probably a lot like how my mom handled me as a kid. Do you need a snack? Do you need some water? Do you need to go to the bathroom? Do you need a nap? Do you need, are you cold? Are you warm? Do you need social connection? Do you need mental stimulation? Do you need a quiet room? It's sometimes you have to help them and say, how does this feel? Does this work? Does this work? But over time, they should be able to much better indicate what they, what they want. Just like potty training when your dog can go to the door and look at you and wiggle like, you gonna let me out? And you go outside. Yes, sir.

[00:37:25] Emily: I mean, and I'm gonna tie it back to humans too. That is the same thing with your clients, okay? Don't ask your clients if they need a nap or they need to go to the bathroom. But what I mean by it's the same thing with clients is that a lot of times clients don't know what their own pain point is.

They. Have a pain point, but they can't articulate it for themselves. And again, we owe it to them to support them by asking them those questions, guiding questions so that you can collaborate with them to identify what their pain point is and then address it. Right. And then I think building micro opportunities for choice and safe frustration is really good.

So like examples of safe frustration for dogs is like. Puzzle toys that are slightly challenging, uh, scent work, like, you know, throwing food in grass, things like that. It's frustration that they actually have the capacity to, to conquer, right? So the term I learned from Christina Spalding that came from some research is high challenge, high reward, right?

The challenge has to meet the skill in order for them to get the reward. And for humans that can look like. Actually for all species that can look like waiting a few beats before responding, letting people process, letting your clients go through. I do this all the time with students. I can see that they're struggling mentally with a concept or they're struggling hard to articulate something that they're feeling, and I just shut up and sit back and let them.

Go through that process until they have done that work, worked through the, the frustrating journey, and are able to articulate what it is they're trying to articulate. Right? That's the best thing you can do for your learners sometimes is just let them have moments where you let them process that frustration and overcome it, and.

Then like all the different ways that we can give clients choice and control. Here's a list of ways that you can meet this need. Which one seems most fun and easy for you? You can be like, okay, well this is one way that we can handle this situation. Here are the pros and cons. This is another way that we can handle the situation. Here are the pros and cons. Which one would you prefer?

I'll support you either way. Right, and it's the same thing like. Ellen, you talked about like giving griffey a choice of which food he wants that day. They're tiny little opportunities to let that learner stretch their, their choice and control and, and exercise that and, and live it, right? So takeaways for, for professionals working with clients. Stop trying to give clients everything in, in one go. Um, share the right information in the right amount at the right time, and you're gonna build those skills through approximations. Give them time to practice. Uh, that cyclical, um, repetitive process is part of a necessary part of skill development, and create moments of curiosity and ownership in your sessions.

[00:40:31] Ellen: And if you're looking to start applying some of these things, one of the best ways to improve your information retention is to either. Immediately apply it relatively immediately. Apply it, teach it, or put it into your own words. Here's some application options. One, notice when you rush to fix something, whether you're a pet parent or a pet professional.

If you're trying to rush to fix something, that might be a very good cue for you to pause, breathe, let it sit for a second, and see what comes out of it. Number two, pause and ask, is this my discomfort or their learning opportunity? Particularly professionals. Give your client space to talk and practice and work through some of the mechanics on their own. That is their learning opportunity. I know it's uncomfortable for you.

Same with pet parents. If your dog is trying to get something behind a box. Let them ask you for your help. Don't just immediately go and move the box for them. And then the last one is celebrate communication that happens in that wanting phase.

So the dog that comes and looks at you with the big sad puppy dog eyes like there's a treat behind the door and can you fix it? Do it. That's a beautiful, beautiful communication of, I don't, I can't do this myself. And there are things that you absolutely don't want your dog doing themselves. So appreciate the want.

[00:41:58] Emily: Yeah, I think that's sort of in. In summary, it's, it's not neglectful to let your learner have once it's empowering for them. You're giving them the skills of asking for what they need and, and being able to meet their own needs when they don't need you to meet those needs. So, um, it's okay to, to let them have unmet needs.

Cyclically, which is different from deprivation D, different from intentionally depriving them of, of things that they can do to meet their needs is very different from allowing them to go through those cyclical experiences of needing things, 

right? 

[00:42:45] Ellen: I don't feel distressed when my dogs show me that they're hungry before dinner or before breakfast. I feel distressed when my dog doesn't eat. Dinner or breakfast. Those are wildly different things.

[00:42:58] Emily: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie, we maybe do tease our dogs a little bit when they are telling us that they're absolutely starving and it's two hours before dinnertime. Both Chuck and I have a tendency to be like, are you dying to death of starvation? Your life is so hard.

[00:43:18] Ellen: To be fair, it is dark and you are right. And I also would like to go to bed, so I empathize with you. Right. And I'm still working, honey.

[00:43:27] Emily: All right. Right. Um, so yeah, we do tease our dogs a little bit when they tell us they're hungry in the evening. I'm like, no, you're not. I mean, you might be, but like, no, I'm not giving you dinner right 

[00:43:39] Ellen: I gave you a midday snuffle. What do you mean? This is disproportionate,

[00:43:44] Emily: I mean, my Miley's one of those dogs who's always hungry no matter what she, she's always down to eat.

[00:43:51] Ellen: My favorite is when Griffey is, um, clearly wasting away. And, uh, we are, we are, we're not offering it, right? So when our dogs indicate that they want something, it's part of the process is to be like, oh, do you need to go outside? We take, we take a stab at what the, the most probable thing is. I'm not gonna say, are you?

H-U-N-G-R-Y. I'm not gonna say anything about any sort of mealtime, I'm not, I'm not offering that because when I offer it and they say yes, I have to do it.

And he gets so frustrated with us when he's like, no, you know what I want? Stop asking me if I want a toy or to cuddle or go outside. And he just looks at us.

And then we say, okay, so what do you want? And he goes, boo woo woo. And so we stand up and then he runs to the corner of the hallway and looks at us. Are you gonna show us? And then he goes, boo woo woo. And then he takes us to the kitchen. And our produce box has been giving us broccoli and he loves what we call broccoli lock because typically the word will elicit awakeness. Luckily, he's out, out, um. He'll take us over to the fridge and he's been nosing the door where the veggies are, and then nosing the veggie drawer and being like, okay, if you're not gonna give me my full sustenance, you at least could give me an appetizer. Yeah. You right, you right. That's fine. You can have, you can have some vegetable.

[00:45:18] Emily: I love that. That's adorable. And also, we have similar pet parenting styles.

[00:45:25] Ellen: It's almost like hazing is your love language.

[00:45:27] Emily: It's almost like hazing is my love language and I love, especially Brie was the best at this. Copper and Miley are good at it, but Brie is the best at when I would like play. Like I didn't understand like, what do you want? I don't understand. What are you asking for right now? She was the best at giving me that look.

Like, I know you know what I'm asking for, and you're just being a jerk right now to be a jerk. Like, she like, uh, daggers for eyes. Like she was really good at being like. You can't play a player.

[00:45:54] Ellen: Brie Brie was the dog that meant that nobody could ever hurt your feelings again.

[00:45:59] Emily: Yes,

[00:46:00] Ellen: That Laika, 

[00:46:01] Emily: And how can I support them? What's the best way to support them? 

[00:46:05] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony. 

[00:46:57] Emily: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that's. A big crap. I just lost the plot. It just went straight outta my brain, boo.

[00:47:09] Ellen: Yours is a bullet train, huh?

[00:47:11] Emily: Yeah, apparently. Um, okay, hold on. I can do this. I can remember and get back on track.

[00:47:19] Ellen: Control is important. Control about things that don't matter. Stop caring 

[00:47:22] Emily: Oh, I remember now. I remember. Thank you.