#152 - Advocating for Your Anxious Dog as an Anxious Human

Advocating for your dog sounds simple, but it sure isn’t always easy. Your heart races, your brain goes blank, and a stranger (or family member 🙃) is giving you unsolicited advice while your dog is already at threshold.

In this episode, Emily and MaryKaye dive into why advocating for your anxious dog can feel so overwhelming, especially when you’re an anxious human too. We unpack the very real nervous system load behind these moments, why “just set a boundary” isn’t always accessible in the heat of the moment, and how scripting, rehearsal, and compassionate planning can make advocacy feel doable instead of devastating.

This isn’t about becoming fearless or perfectly confident. It’s about protecting your dog, your integrity, and your energy, and feeling good about it.

TLDL (too long, didn’t listen): 3 Key Takeaways 

1️⃣ Advocacy is a nervous system event, not a confidence issue - If your brain blanks or your body panics, that’s not a personal failure, it’s physiology.

2️⃣ You don’t owe anyone an explanation to protect your dog - Ending an unhelpful conversation is allowed, even if it disappoints someone.

3️⃣ Preparation is the intervention - Scripts, rehearsal, and visual signals lower cognitive load and prevent stress for both you and your dog.

For the full episode show notes, including the resources mentioned in this episode, go here.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] MaryKaye: If you live with an animal who has been on a journey with you, behaviorally speaking, the likelihood of you having come across these kinds of situations is. Pretty darn high. Um, Whether with family, friends, strangers, the likelihood is that you've experienced this in some capacity. And the whole goal of this entire podcast episode is to help you feel empowered to navigate those kinds of situations with strength and leaving your integrity Inta intact because I feel like so much of the time we will. Navigate those conversations and walk away from them and feel like poop. We don't want you to feel like that. We want you to feel like you can walk away from those conversations and say, Hey, I'm really proud of myself. I really handled that well because I've had the opportunity to practice it.

[00:00:50] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender...

[00:01:07] Emily: ...and I'm Emily Strong...

[00:01:09] Allie: ...and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let's get started.

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:29] Emily: A few years ago when Brie was still alive. I had just moved to Seattle. And, Seattle's kind of the mecca for dog trainers.

There's just a whole bunch of us here. And I was talking to a, a relatively new dog trainer friend, and um, they were like, oh, you should, you should bring Brie over. And like, she can run around with my dogs and we'll just have a really good time. There's lots of space. I just felt like instant terror because at the sanctuary where Allie and I met Brie had one friend that she could live with and she had tried to kill multiple dogs and we had done a lot of work with her. So I, I was comfortable with her seeing other dogs without immediately trying to go murder them. But she's still not, not great. She's very, very, very dog selective. As were many of the feral desert dogs that we had gotten into that sanctuary. I think that was a pretty standard behavioral pattern for them.

So it, she wasn't, worse than other dogs from where she came from. But those dogs just tended to be really highly dog selective. And one of the reasons we adopted her is because she loved copper when she first met him. And that was very, very unusual for her. Copper was the second friend she ever had.

So when. When my friend offered that, it was very sweet. And also it was like, oh, wow, you, you really think I am, I am capable of more than I am in terms of like what I can accomplish with behavior change in dogs. But no, I'm not gonna do that because I don't want my dog to, to unlive your dogs. That's, that's not gonna happen. It was one of those moments where your stomach just drops into your shoes and, and again, like I was not at all upset with her for offering that. I thought it was very sweet, but it was, it was an anxiety inducing moment for sure. And I think a lot of pet parents can, can. Resonate with that. A lot of people have felt those feels deep down in their soul.

So today we're gonna be diving into why advocating for your anxious pet can feel like navigating a high stake social maze, especially when you're anxious too. 

[00:03:52] MaryKaye: Are you even alive if you're not anxious too? Is that, is that a thing?

[00:03:56] Emily: I don't, yeah. What, who are these people who don't experience anxiety?

[00:04:00] MaryKaye: I don't know. Who are these magical creatures that roam the earth without anxiety? I need to know them. 

[00:04:06] Emily: I mean, first of all, it's a matter of degrees, right? Because like everybody can experience anxiety at some point in It's, it's a natural thing that humans experience. But also, I, that, probably everybody can experience like really bad anxiety, but maybe. Depending on where you're from or your upbringing or your worldview, you just have different labels for it than calling it anxiety. 

[00:04:32] MaryKaye: That's, I think that's probably pretty darn accurate. 

[00:04:35] Emily: So I'm gonna just reframe that and say if your dog's behavior gives you any kind of feelings other than like, oh heck yes. This episode is for you 

[00:04:50] MaryKaye: So, in other words, it's basically for every single pet parent, uh, that it shares their life with, with a dog or a cat or a bird or whatever.

[00:05:00] Emily: or a horse. Or a goat or a pig. I think the reason that this topic matters is because for many people, what seems like a simple, no, thank you. Is actually a like physiological event, right? Capital P, capital E, physiological event. It gets your heart racing, it gets your palm sweating.

You get like the, you kind of like blank. You get brain fog where you just like suddenly forget how to. Use words or have thoughts, it just is a whole thing, right? So by the end of this episode, you'll learn why these conversations feel so hard for you, how to prepare for them ahead of time, and how practicing with the behavior consultant can make that world moment a whole lot easier for both you and your pet. 

So we often talk about advocating for our pets as if it's just a really simple ask. And when I say we, I mean the industry. I see a lot of stuff on social media that's like advocate for your pet. I've even written blogs that are like, don't let people violate your boundaries.

And it's not that those messages are bad or wrong, I think it's just maybe missing an extra layer, acknowledging that sometimes that is a really big ask and it's really hard for some people, and I think it's important for us to pause and acknowledge that. For some people or perhaps for everybody in specific contexts, I don't know.

But we can say sometimes for humans that moment can feel like scaling a mountain in socks with like a greasy hands. Like you just, wash dishes and your hands have like dish soap. Dirty dish water and you're trying to like climb a rock that, that's a gross analogy, but that's how I'm kind of envisioning this of like, why don't you just like climb that mountain just 

[00:06:52] MaryKaye: And then you just, you can't make any headway 'cause you just keep sliding right back on down. Is that what you're trying to get at? Yeah. 

Yeah. 

I get you. I hear you. I think it happens a lot. First of all, I just wanna kind of normalize that 'cause I feel like it happens for the vast majority of the clients, at least that I have worked with over the course of me doing this for, you know, a pretty long time now.

I think that there's a couple of factors that probably pay into that, play into that. And I think one of a big one for a lot of people, especially here in, in our Midwestern states, is that we're super polite. And so we feel like we have this kind of obligation to have conversations with people when they directly address us and. We can, it can feel really uncomfortable to either say like, stop, I can't, I don't have time for this right now. Or to even just kinda shut people down and say like, we're, we're not doing this back and forth. So I think part of it is just we've been very conditioned to respond to people when they are offering advice and it, I wanna just make it super clear that it's okay for you to not.

Engage in that kind of conversation, especially if you're in the, in the thick of something. W it, you know, managing your dog. And I also think that the other thing that plays into it significantly is that a lot of times the people may or may not, I don't, I won't guess at everybody's intentions, but I think a lot of times people are providing advice to folks who are already in the thick of it. under the assumption that they haven't already tried something. Like it's the same. It's no different to me for the people that give medical advice. Like, well, have you tried yoga? Have you tried meditation? Have you tried this? Have you tried herbal supplements? Right? And it's like, yes. And also I don't need to explain to you my entire history of what I have tried and not tried because I know myself best and.

Pet parents, you do know your pets better than any anybody else. So I think that part of it is like it's triggering because we're conditioned to respond, but we're, we're also, you know, dealing with people who, whose motives and intentions are not always clear. Um. I am thinking of a specific example of, I've got like several examples of this because it's something that I do run into quite a bit.

But uh, working with a client who, who has a, a really sweet little, I think she's a, she's not a shihtzu, she's a, I think she's a lasso ssa, cutest little dog. She's a little bit anxious about the world and she doesn't really like to greet people on walks. And her pet parents were. Really kind of stuck because they kept getting approached because she's this cute, adorable, adorable little faced dog who by all you know, if you look at her, you would think, oh my God, she's so cute.

I wanna go pet her as the general public thinks they have, are entitled to do that. And this dog was absolutely opting out every single. She didn't want us to do it, and it was the, they, they confided to me that they were embarrassed. They felt embarrassed and a little bit of shame that their dog wasn't being this kind of social butterfly.

And we, we literally did come up with a, a script for them to practice pre-event, meaning that when you're, you're in the thick of it, it's really hard because. As you said, Emily your heart is racing. You're, you know, you're feeling, you're, you're literally in fight or flight, um, or fawn or freeze, whatever it is.

And your brain is not functioning. So it's really good to have that opportunity to practice what your script is gonna be so that you can say to people with confidence and kindness, if that matters to you, you don't owe other people that. But if it matters to you to have the ability to say. Ahead of time to know what you're, go prepare yourself ahead of time, be proactive about how you're going to respond to folks in the, and when you are stuck kind of in the middle of something.

I think it's also very frustrating. I have been on the receiving end of this myself. It's very frustrating for folks when someone says, have you tried that? And it's like. Duh. Yeah, I have, I have tried letting them work it out. I have tried letting them play. I have tried multiple things and the reason I'm here right now working with a professional is because those things didn't work.

It's, it's good to be prepared for those kinds of comments. Again, you don't owe people your life story or your pet's life story, but I think it's empowering for you to be able to say to them in the moment something that's gonna cut that conversation short and just let you continue to, work with your pet, live with your pet advocate for your pet, but not expend too much energy on things that may not serve you well.

[00:11:37] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanna pull out a couple of things that you said that were just gold because I think one of the things that people are so afraid of, and I feel like especially in the sort of positive reinforcement world, this. Commonly and really easily tips over into like toxic positivity is this idea that if you are kind, the way that you know that kindness has happened is that everybody is happy and every, all the feelings are warm, fuzzy, and there's like agreement and harmony and, that's not actually what kindness means. That's not always the outcome of kindness. And sometimes the est thing that you can do in the broad picture, the, the way that you can most effectively reduce harm, improve, and we welfare and wellbeing for your dog, for yourself, for other people in the environment is say, being blunt and saying, don't do that.

Right? And, and sometimes the reaction to that. Can be big feelings. Sometimes people love to slam themselves into your boundaries repeatedly, and then they're like, you hurt me and I'm, I'm hurt that you hurt me. And it's like, no, babe, you hurt yourself. You are the one who kept repeatedly running into my boundaries.

And so like, one of the things that I've had to learn is I need to do what I need to do to, reduce harm. And if other people's feelings get hurt or they get mad or they wanna play the victim or they wanna go talk trash about me that's their journey. That's not my journey. And I'm not responsible for their res, their reaction to the choices that I'm making.

I am still making a kind choice, even if somebody else doesn't. Like it or doesn't feel that it's kind. Right. 

[00:13:31] MaryKaye: You're, you're, you're making a kind choice with yourself and the animal you're advocating for at the forefront of that choice as opposed to making the other person's feelings at the forefront of that choice. And I think there are times when that is absolutely. Necessary in order for you to be able to navigate life with, especially if you have a spicy kiddo you, the kindness isn't being kind, quote unquote, kind to someone else at your own expense or at your pet's expense is not, it is not functioning in the way that you think it might be functioning and it's nots.

It's definitely not serving. It's probably not serving you well.

[00:14:10] Emily: Yes, all of that is true and also it in many cases, it can even be a kindness to the person who's mad at you because if your dog's anxiety manifests itself as conflict seeking, as biting, you are being kind to the person by not allowing them to get bitten by your dog. Right. So it's like you can have your feelings hurt.

I would much rather have your feelings hurt and you be mad at me than you getting bitten and having to go to the hospital, right? So it can even be a kindness to the person who is mad at you and doesn't understand the choices that you're making. And, and I think that that has been, lesson for me, because I'm kind of the opposite of the Midwest polite.

That, that you grew up in that culture. First of all, I'm neuros spicy, and one of the features of autism is that sometimes we don't realize that, like we're saying something that to us, just as a neutral fact and, and other people take that as like a devastating attack. Right. And, that has certainly been my experience in life.

And on top of that, I grew up in Texas where there's a communication culture that we call, like we call it a straight shooter. Like you say what you mean and you mean what you say. So using subtext does not come naturally to me. It's incredibly difficult for me, but the impact of that is that I operate in a world where I am the minority and.

I'm now in my mid forties, and so I have a long learning history of interacting with people in a way that I felt was kind and gentle or just neutral and having people have these huge reactions to what I said and be so offended. By something that I said that wasn't even attack. And even like, I've had situations where I've tried to compliment or support somebody and still they took it as an attack.

And so my anxiety stems from not from, I'm afraid to be blunt. I mean, I am afraid to be blunt, but it's not from I'm afraid to be impolite. It's that I am, I don't know how you are going to interpret what I'm saying. And so when I am interacting with somebody that I don't know well, and I don't trust that they will take my communication in good faith, and they, and they.

They know how I communicate and they're not offended by what I say. I tend to use a lot more subtext because even though it's exhausting for me and it's hard for me. I'm afraid of saying what I think would be the clearest way to communicate, because I'm afraid they're gonna take it the wrong way. And, and that just makes me so anxious.

It makes me so anxious. And then it can, it can spiral. And so that for me, learning in therapy that like, I, I need to say what I can say and sometimes subtext is appropriate for, for some people in some contexts. So I'm, I'm having, I've had to learn how to. Use subtext and also be o be okay with that, right?

But what I've had to learn is like, you need to say what you need to say and the best way that you think it will be received, and then let the other person react however they're gonna react, and not try to control that or try to buffer it or not feel like it's a failure if the person gets upset, 

[00:17:29] MaryKaye: Because I, I can think of like two, two very different situations where it's like you, there are situations where like, let's say you have a family member who keeps trying to give you advice about how to manage your dogs or your cats or whatever pets. Emotions. And you have more time to say, okay, like I know that this is a pattern of behavior that's going to happen, versus you're out walking your dog on the street and you know, your dog does not like to meet strangers and they approach you wanting to meet your dog.

And I think both of those situations require a different kind of thought process for you to be able to very quickly recall in the situation where somebody's approaching you quickly saying, can I pet your dog? Versus, you know, you know, you have a PA family member who kind of triggers you by their, either good intentions or not advice that they're giving um, and being able to respond to that accordingly.

I do think it's really important that we remember that. Everybody has their, I, one of the points you made is that everybody has their own learning history with how they communicate. you know, They're going to come with their own set of anxiety, their own set of communication skills and styles. To me, at the end of the day, the most important thing is if you're going to be doing advocacy work for your pet that you.

Kind of hold affirm to what works for you and your pet in that time. And if that means, like you said, stepping on what's, what someone else may feel is like a boundary, you know, let's work through that a little bit so that you get more comfortable with doing it. And I think that that. The difference between a really, really good behavior consultant and one that's not as seasoned yet, is the ability to kinda help you navigate those kinds of tough situations and tough conversations that you may have to have with family members.

If you live with an animal who has been on a journey with you, behaviorally speaking, the likelihood of you having come across these kinds of situations is. Pretty darn high. Um, Whether with family, friends, strangers, the likelihood is that you've experienced this in some capacity. And the whole goal of this entire podcast episode is to help you feel empowered to navigate those kinds of situations with strength and leaving your integrity Inta intact because I feel like so much of the time we will. Navigate those conversations and walk away from them and feel like poop. We don't want you to feel like that. We want you to feel like you can walk away from those conversations and say, Hey, I'm really proud of myself. I really handled that well because I've had the opportunity to practice it.

[00:20:05] Emily: So to give you an example of what that looks like. I had a client who had two corgis. She adopted them as like siblings, they litter mates, they were litter mates. And there's a lot of people on the internet. They're like, you never, never adopt litter mates together. And there's this sort of like made up term litter mates syndrome, which if you ask 20 different people what it means, you're gonna get 20 different definitions.

And there's a kernel of truth in it in that it is harder to teach. Baby dogs. Good healthy life skills when they're teaching each other. Puppy chaos, right? So, so it is more challenging, but but it's certainly possible to do it. And if somebody makes that choice for any number of reasons, it is their choice to make.

And lo and behold, the puppies started fighting with each other when they hit. Puberty when they, when they went through their first hate cycle and they got their big girl hormones, they started fighting with each other. And family members who had in initially criticized my client for getting two puppies and did their 92nd in internet research and came back from it being like, the internet says they're gonna get litter mate syndrome and you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They were. So critical they wouldn't leave her alone about it. They kept saying like, this is what you get. You made a poor choice. And ma you need to let them just fight it out now. Like you, like you put them in this situation and you need to let them duke it out. They'll, they'll figure it out.

Eventually quit trying to like intervene. 'cause like first you shouldn't have adopted both of them to begin with. And secondly, now you're being a helicopter mom. It's just really, really critical. Right? So when I first started working with her. We had a conversation about, like, first of all, we're like, okay, let's, let's talk about why this is so triggering for you.

Like, what is, what is so emotionally difficult about this situation? And then she shared with me that, she had very close family members who are being really critical. And I was like, okay. So, what is it about their criticism that is so hard for you? Is there, like, what is stopping you from just telling them?

Giving them the finger and slamming the door in their face. Right. And, and she said, I feel ashamed because they told me not to get littered litter mates, and I did it anyway. And they, now, they're basically doing, I told you so, and now I feel like I don't have a right to argue with them because they were right the first time.

And so, I don't feel like I can say Nuh this time because they'll, I'm afraid they'll be right again and they'll just be like, doubling down on the, I told you so, and that was a really helpful conversation to have to start off our journey together with understanding what the stakes were for her. And we got to have this conversation of like, okay, so what happens when your family criticizes you in this way? Like, what what, how do you respond? How do you feel in your body? Like, what's going on? Right. How are you? Are you arguing? Are you doing the mea culpa game? Are you just shutting down and, and just listening, just taking the abuse, like what happens, and she goes, well, I've tried to explain why I hired you, and they. Just escalate. Like basically they were like, you're paying uh, charlatan a lot of money. That's, that stuff is hooey. That doesn't work. Blah, blah, blah. So I was like, okay. So it's not just that they disagreed with your decision to get litter mates, but they also disagree with.

The, our training ideology and how you're choosing to handle it. And and I said, okay, so, how do you respond after they say that? And, and she said, I just, I just tell them, well, what do you want me to do about it now? And they tell me, just let 'em, let 'em work it out themselves. And I'm like, okay. But last time I did that, we went to the vet and it would cost over a thousand dollars.

And, and I was like, okay, so what did they say? What did they say when you said that? And they were like, well, they went back to blaming. They went back to the beginning of the conversation and I was like, okay. So that's a circular argument. It doesn't matter, even if they had a really solid argument for you.

The point is that they're not being helpful. Right. So. The thing to do in that situation is you don't have to have a conversation with them. All you have to do is tell them, I'm not interested in your advice and the conversation. If that means leaving their house, hanging up the phone, escorting them to the door, if they're in your house whatever that looks like, all you have to do is say, I am not interested in getting advice from you on, on this topic.

And that's it. And then we did a little role playing and I was like, okay, I'll be your family members. I want you to practice with me. And, and so we practiced and I was being really like saying all the criticisms and, and getting the voice of like, well, you Shannon, me, me, me. Right. I actually enjoy role playing 'cause it lets me unleash my inner actor.

[00:25:19] MaryKaye: I, I hear you. I always was uncomfortable with role playing, you know, having a background in psychology and social work. We had to do some of it when I was in school, and I'm, I'm much better at it now. It's a skill. It's a skill like any other,

[00:25:32] Emily: Yeah, it's fun to get to play other people. But yeah, we did some role playing and she practiced just saying, and, and it was like, it's a script, but it was literally one sentence. I'm not interested in getting advice from you about this. Right. And letting her, giving her the tools to deal with her family.

Was actually the biggest part of the journey for us because at the, ultimately what we decided, we, we went through the process of integration. I told her what the trajectory would be like. I told her what the steps in the trajectory would be. We got about two months into it and she was like, I realized I don't care that much about integration now because in the, those early stages.

I had taught her how to compartmentalize the house. We had discovered which context the puppies could get together and share space and play well together, and which ones were sort of the, the hot points for them. So they did have opportunities to coexist. They had other opportunities to be separated.

We created a routine for her that was a sustainable way for her to enrich both dogs. And after two months of doing the training, she was like, I kind of am fine with life as it is. I don't want to keep doing the work to integrate them. but the biggest thing for her was giving her permission to tell her critics to F off. Right.

[00:26:52] MaryKaye: Yeah, I, I, here's what I loved about what all the, the, the example you used and, and your client was so lucky to have you. Helping her navigate that situation. 'cause it's really hard. But I love that you kept it short and succinct for her. Just like, because I think a lot of times in that situation, people will, overexplain and I, I, I think it, there comes a point where it's like this, I've tried that route.

It doesn't work. They just keep coming at me. So I love the language that you used with her too. It's just I'm not interested in having a conversation with you about this because it lets you know, it lets the receiver know that we've, we're not doing, I'm not doing, I'm not engaging with you in this way right now.

And, and it can help shut that down so that she can just go on and, and make a plan that works for her. Along alongside the, you know, the behavior consultant that was you. But I think keeping it, I think it's better in most cases to keep it short, succinct, and just like very forthright in some respects.

And I think it takes a lot of reassurance for clients from, from a professional to be able to, to say that and do that with the uh, level of comfort that they will need to do it. And also that they are pr like you said, like practicing it with someone. And usually when I'm working on that with clients, we do, I will, we will come with up with the, the script, so to speak, and then we do practice it.

And then I have them practice it in front of a mirror and then I have them practice it with a trusted family member that's not gonna give them, a, a hard time. We scaffold that skill.

[00:28:28] Emily: Yeah, and I have to say I can't take credit for the short and sweet thing. I actually learned that from a psychologist named Sharon Martin, who has done a lot of work teaching people how to set boundaries. She's written some articles. I think she may have even written a book, so I learned that from her.

But one of the reasons that Succinctness is so important is because when you are in a state of heightened stress. You're not in your thinking and learning zone, and so it's hard to remember a big, long script, right? It's so much easier for somebody to remember a short and sweet sentence than a a four sentence paragraph explanation of why.

This isn't gonna continue happening. Right. And so, yeah, I can't take credit. All credit goes to Dr. Sharon Martin. The, the resources that she has put out are invaluable. And I wrote a blog, like I mentioned earlier, I wrote a blog that we'll put in the show notes about like how to set those boundaries with people who are giving you unsolicited advice.

And the reason I wanna share that blog is because I actually linked to, to Dr. Martin's work in. That blog article. So, yeah, I, I learned it from somebody else. I didn't come up with that, but it's so important because when you've got that social pressure going on, it's just a huge emotional load and you already have caregiver burden from helping support an animal with special needs.

So to add that emotional load of that social pressure on top of the caregiver burden just makes everything exponentially worse. Right. I think what's interesting is that. We spend a lot of time teaching people these consulting skills, not just this, but consulting skills in general, in Pet Pro, in the previous version of the mentorship program, when we used to do the enrichment masterclass.

And the consistent feedback that we get from people who engage with our materials is, I came here for enrichment. I, I wasn't expecting this much coaching on. Consulting skills and how to support the client, but now that I'm learning it, I'm realizing. Not only just how important it is to the clients in general, but how fundamental it is to an enrichment based approach.

Because it, like so much of these, like coaching skills are, are really about reducing harm, improving welfare and wellbeing, giving everybody as much agency as possible, empowering them with skills so that they can make good life choices. Like it's all enrichment, right.

I think that's something that a lot of people miss in the conversation about enrichment is that if you are taking an enrichment based approach, you also have to make sure that you're meeting your client's needs in, in, in the context in which it's appropriate for you to do so.

Right? You're not meeting all of your clients' needs, but you're meeting their needs in relation to what they've hired you for, right?

[00:31:16] MaryKaye: I think that's really important. I don't, I think that it is very much an under either undervalued or it doesn't get talked about enough in our profession to be, to have other professionals who are kind of missing that, that piece of the client support. I don't, I, it's. The longer I do this, the more I realize that that is a much bigger part of what I do than the actual I, I have had clients tell me. This is better than therapy. And it's not because I'm playing the role of a therapist, but I am empowering them to make choices that work for them. I am giving them tools. I am giving them sometimes permission to say, you know, to, to enact things uh, that are gonna be helpful for them. And they will say things like, you know, I didn't, I didn't know this, you know, and they'll, we'll joke about it.

I didn't know this was gonna be like therapy session. I mean, um, But it. To me, I want my clients to know that I ha I absolutely have their back when it's something that I can have their back about. And helping them navigate conversations around their pet's behavior and helping them be able to do that in a way that they walk away from that conversation feeling okay about it and hopefully sometimes better than just okay about it, is a huge skillset that gets very overlooked in our industry.

Client support is absolutely vital to be able to do this long term. 

It really is. 

[00:32:45] Emily: Yeah. And part of that is the script, the scripting is so important. It's undervalued. And I think a lot of people. At first blush might think that scripts are cheating or that it's not giving clients a descriptive approach like a script can seem really prescriptive. Um, But it is, scripts are actually really critical tools for our nervous system, 

[00:33:12] MaryKaye: I think scripts are just like super good antecedent arrangement, you know? I mean, really they are, they're, they're nothing more than they're really. Antecedent arrangement for the client to be able to know what to do when their brain is firing and all cylinders and when they are feeling stress and their heart is pumping and they are starting to sweat, we have a script so that they can, in those moments, it's just like rehearsal of any other behavior.

We can, we have a script for tho them in those moments when they are, you know, it's, it's it, so that it becomes habitual enough for them to be able to use it.

[00:33:45] Emily: Yeah, and I mean that's true for behavior professionals as well. Like we also focus on helping our mentees develop scripts for different situations that they commonly find themselves in for the same reason, because the cognitive load of having to come up with, a beautifully articulated response in the moment is so draining.

It's not sustainable, it's not scalable. So teaching people how to. Write scripts for themselves that are in their voice, that feel authentic to them um, when they're having hard conversations with clients, is just as important as teaching clients how to have those hard conversations with family, friends, neighbors, or whatever.

And the difference between scripting and a pre script of approach is that you are still. You're still selecting which script, first of all is, is appropriate for the context, but also you're still observing the outcomes of that script. And if I have a, a client who uses a script and a family member doesn't respond the way that we would expect um, we review and we pivot.

Right? And same thing with consultants. If they have a script and they use it and. 90% of the time it works. But 10% of the cl time clients don't respond the way we would expect we pivot, right? So a, a script doesn't necessarily have to be prescriptive. You can still use it in the way that is enriching and effective and, and all of those things.

But it is, it is. I think that you absolutely nailed it when you said it's just really good solid antecedent arrangement to lower the cognitive load and the emotional load of these really important conversations.

[00:35:29] MaryKaye: So when we're thinking about the application piece of this we, we want to be able to give some kind of guidance and structure to how that can, how the, the skills that we're talking about can be applied in real life situations. And the first thing I think it, that's really important to do in that is to identify the situation that, that, reliably will spike anxiety in you. So if you are for going back to the, the client that I had that had the, the sweet little s the opso who was anxious about meeting people, we talked about what situations that was going to be triggered in. And it was almost always when they were out on walks and people would approach and.

In the household when people would come over to visit and the dog was reluctant to say hello to them. So we knew that for them, we identified the situations in which that that anxiety spike was going to happen. And then the next step would be to develop a nice short script around that whether it's we're training right now, we can't say hi.

And that's it. And then moving on come up with a short sentence, a short, like a, a very short sentence. Don't make it a paragraph. Don't make it super long. Something you'll remember under pressure and something that will convey the message quickly. And then we do want you, like, the next step is to say it out loud.

I do have clients practice with me, but I also have them practice it in the mirror, which sounds really weird and maybe semi creepy, but I also think that it gives them the chance and the opportunity to be able to, to even, look at their own facial expressions when they're doing it.

And the more they do it, the better they get at it, and the less and the less awkward it feels. So we wanna reduced awkwardness as much as possible. And, sharing your plan with your behavior consultant is great. Uh. Typically what happens with me is that we just work through that together and I honestly, in their worksheets, will write out the script that we came up with so that they can practice it, like I said, in amongst themselves in a mirror with a trusted family or friend who's going to be, you know, give them the response that they're looking for before they actually practice it out in the real world.

Then the, the final thing is to be able to create a kind of avoid it all together. Plan when appropriate. So what I mean is that by, that is just like an exit strategy. Like I don't have the time, energy, bandwidth to do this right now. Sometimes, it's okay. It's okay for you to, um. just wave to someone from across the street and say, most humans are pretty good at reading body language. And you can be like, yeah, I see.

Yeah, no, thanks. Not, not gonna, and then, or you know what I do when I don't feel like talking to neighbors? Oh, I'm, I'm outing myself. What if they listen to this?

Oh, well. They'll never know if it's true or not. I take out my phone and I pretend I'm talking on my phone. I don't have to engage with people when I don't want to. So there are exit strategies that you can have that are really quick that will get you out of the situation without you having to go through.

Even a sentence. It's okay. They, they make really nice I've seen a lot of leashes now that have, you know, we're in training or don't approach or, you know, whatever it says on the leash. There's a lot of anesthesia arrangements. I see. Wear, you know, the, uh, the clothing that people can wear, hats that people can wear.

Those are kinds of antrice arrangements. I had a client who literally made, and I thought this was actually really brilliant because she had her super spicy kiddo highly leash reactive to people and dogs when she was out walking and she was working really, really hard. And, you know, every time we have an incident, we have a setback.

So it's like, I don't wanna have an incident. You know what she did? And she came up with it on her own, and I thought it was brilliant. She made a stop sign on Red Con like poster board and she wrote Stop, and she put it on a paint stick and she just would lift that baby up, just lift the baby up. And it was a really good way for the, the people to see, please don't approach me.

And it, she said it worked. You know, 90. I dunno, 95% of the time. And I thought, brilliant. Like you don't have to have a conversation about this. You can have a very clear signal that you need distance and space without hurting anyone's feelings. And like you said, if their feelings get hurt, then, then they do.

Again, we're looking to prevent rehearsal of behavior here and also have you walk away not feeling defeated. So, make the stop sign, folks. It's okay. I, I support you in that decision.

[00:39:58] Emily: I mean, and there are so many cute little jackets and stuff now for dogs that have all kinds of, patches and stuff. And I had a client, I cannot, for the life of me remember what this condition is called, but she had a condition where when she would get extremely stressed, she would actually experience a type of paralysis.

That would, if it was really bad, she would actually fall down. Like she

couldn't actually stand up. I can't remember what that condition is called. But, so for her, a script was not always going to be an option. She, so I talked to her about like, get one of the jackets for your dog that has the patches that say, do not pet, not friendly, whatever.

Whatever you want the patch to say. She found somebody on ET Etsy who custom makes those patches and. She's a Lord of the Rings fan. And so this person on Etsy made her a little embroidered patch with Gandalf holding up his staff, and it said the little speech bubble over his head said, you shall not pet

in all caps.

[00:41:02] MaryKaye: That 

is fabulous. 

[00:41:04] Emily: It was the cutest thing of my whole life. And so what she would do would just, when people would approach, she would just point at the patch. And because it was a cute and funny Gandalf thing, most people weren't offended. They were just like, ah. Right. It would get people's attention. It was delightful.

And that would reduce her stress because when people were enjoying her management strategy. She wasn't ha she wasn't getting stressed about their negative feelings. Right. And I just thought that was the cutest thing. I just, I didn't even know that that was an option until that client found it. And then I started telling other clients, like if you go on Etsy and you look for custom patches, there are people who may, and I would, I tell, I could don't know how many clients I told about her Gandalf

patch. 

[00:41:47] MaryKaye: It is so cute. I love, I 

love that so much. 

[00:41:50] Emily: There's lots of antecedent arrangement that you can do that can help support you so that you, if the script doesn't work on its own, or if you don't have the bandwidth or the physiological capabilities to have that, have that conversation or say that script or that sentence in that moment, you can rely on other tools as well.

I think it's also an accessibility thing because. So somebody you don't know if somebody approaching you is deaf. And so it may be helpful to have something in writing for, for deaf folks who are trying to approach her dog.

[00:42:21] MaryKaye: Yeah. That's a great, I that's a great thought.

yeah. 

[00:42:24] Emily: So I think it's it's important to remember that advocating for your dog and your pet does not make you dramatic.

It doesn't make you overly sensitive. It doesn't mean that you're overreacting. You are navigating. Legitimate context, valid emotions reasonable expectations of yourself and your dog and, and how people interact with you. You and your dog have autonomy. You do have the right to say, I do not want you to do this to me. That is your right as a living, sentient being too. What I mean is it is, it is acceptable and good for you to advocate for your right to bodily autonomy and your dog's right to bodily autonomy, right?

So yes, it is a lot. When people try to give you advice or violate your boundaries, violate your dog's boundaries, critique you, all of that stuff, it is valid for you. To say no to that, and you can say it in a kind way. And also you are not responsible for how people react to you. You are advocating for yourself and your pet. That is their journey. That is not your journey.

[00:43:37] MaryKaye: yeah. And I just wanna say too, like when you're thinking of these things it's really important that you have a trust account with your, your behavior consultants so that you can. Have that conversation. If you don't have a behavior consultant, that you can express these kinds of things that are you're experiencing because those kinds of things can hinder your progress.

It's really important for you to feel comfortable with your behavior consultant, and it's really important for behavior co consultants to allow. Clients, the space to be able to have those kinds of conversations with you because that is a partnership. You as a behavior consultant are part of that pet and that humans care team.

And it's really important that we get comfortable as professionals and for clients to get comfortable as clients to say, I'm having a hard time, I'm struggling right now with this I. I need help. And for then the, the consultant to be able to say, okay, we're gonna work on a script and we're gonna practice it, and we're gonna make you really proficient at it so that it's not as much of a, it doesn't feel as weight heavy for you.

[00:44:42] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, and I would just say for. Professionals. If this is hard for you and you don't know how to do this, that does not make you bad at your job. How would you know this if nobody has taught it to you? Pet Pro is, is designed to help people cultivate skills that aren't, aren't necessarily easy to learn in other contexts.

I didn't have anybody to teach this to me, and so the way that I learned this stuff was by. Lots and lots of therapy, trial and eval mistakes, getting resources from therapists like Dr.

Sharon Martin's work. And I, like I always joke, we, we jokingly say that the tagline of Pet Pro is we messed up so you don't have to. I, I learned it. I got there eventually. And also I messed up a lot along the way and I, I. I don't think anybody should have to go through what I went through.

To recap what Mary Kay said earlier, identify the situation or situations in the plural that reliably spike your anxiety. Write a one sentence script for how to set boundaries in a way that is succinct and kind and advocates for you and your pets practice saying it out loud to yourself in the mirror, to people who are willing to rehearse with you wherever you wanna practice it.

Share the plan with your behavior consultant so they can help you refine it, especially if you're struggle busting with it. And finally, create and avoid it altogether. Plan when appropriate, including antecedent arrangement. Things like the patches that go on leashes or, or dog jackets, or your CL Mary Kay's client's. Stop sign. Something like that.

[00:46:27] Allie: I hope you enjoy today's episode and if there's someone in your life who also needs to hear this, be sure to text it to them right now. If you're a pet parent looking for more tips on enrichment, behavior modification, and finding harmony with your pet, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Pet Harmony training. If you're a behavior or training professional dedicated to enrichment for yourself, your clients, and their pets, check us out on TikTok and Instagram at Pet Harmony Pro.

As always, links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes. Thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode and making us sound good. Our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixa Bay. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That helps more pet lovers and professionals find us so they can bring enrichment into their world too.

Thank you for listening, and here's to harmony. You do have the right to say, I do not want you to do this to me.

[00:47:25] Emily: That is your right as a living, sentient being

too. Bodily autonomy is a right that we all have and we, I mean that right is often violated, but you have the right to advocate for your. Right. That's redundant. What I mean is it is, it is acceptable and good for you to advocate for your right to bodily autonomy and your dog's right to bodily autonomy, right?